Quote from wavygravygadzooks on May 5, 2021, 1:06 pm

@lil-chick  I already stated the reason why carotenoids should not be called Vitamin A - because it's a xenobiotic in humans (and animals in general).  Calling something a vitamin means it has essential functionality in the body, which carotenoids do not.

It may very well be that modern "civilized" humans need very little Vitamin A because our environment is so different from what we evolved in.  As I've mentioned elsewhere, if Vitamin A serves as an antioxidant and/or an armament for the immune system, then our ancestors that lived outside under UV all the time and had to routinely fight off pathogens would have been using Vitamin A at a much higher rate.

Different animals certainly have radically different abilities to tolerate specific plant compounds.  Birds that specialize in consuming seeds and berries have a much higher tolerance for the compounds in them than more generalist plant predators.

Quote from ggenereux on May 5, 2021, 1:28 pm

Quote from michele on May 5, 2021, 1:01 pm

@ggenereux2014

I'm surprised that your response is simply a link to the USDA database on VA concentration in bison.  Isn't this the same organization promoting the idea of VA as a vitamin (which you do not believe) and setting the RDA for VA?  Not sure why you'd trust this source!  If you can't at least entertain the idea of following my logic (bison eat grass --> grass contains VA/carotenoids --> whoever eats the bison may very well consume some of that VA/carotenoids), then this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.  You want a low VA blood serum to fit your narrative, and it seems that's the end of that.  

@wavygravygadzooks

You bring up a good point about carotenoids vs. VA.  It's been quite some time since my irrational fear of VA, and I don't recall a lot of the details, but I'm now remembering that there is a difference.  I did a quick search, and this is by no means a scientific study (it's actually from a website of a farm), but this touches on what a few of us are hinting at.  I realize it's about beef, but I imagine it could apply to bison as well.

https://weatherburyfarm.com/grass-fed-beef/grass-fed-beef-health-environmental-benefits/grass-fed-rich-in-beta-carotene/

Let's put aside our difference of opinion with regards to evolution.    I'm still plenty entitled to an opinion and believe I've made a few decent points here.  Remember, I was on the low VA train at one point - I'm really just interested in sharing information and not trying to ruffle feathers.

@lil-chick  

Thanks for not taking my post personally about the alcohol.  I don't know about the fruitarians of Harvard - I'll look into this!  Now I'm curious.  As far as whether or not heroic efforts are necessary to maintain or regain health - I unfortunately believe this will vary person to person.  My personal belief is that Grant saw improvement in his health because he eliminated one massive disease-producing food (dairy) and switched to a whole food, low fat diet.  He didn't have a history of taking any horribly toxic pharma drugs (like I did) and is a bit older and therefore likely has a stronger genetic constitution.  He didn't have a hundred vaccines like kids today in their 20's.  So for him, it was "easier" to heal.  He didn't necessarily find the perfect diet, just made enough tweaks to get his body back on track and allow for healing.  For me, heroic efforts were necessary.

@are

I'm not sure why an excess of fruit would suddenly become poisonous.  A poison is a poison.  I think phrases like "everything in moderation" and "eat a balanced diet" has biased our thinking.  We think that "just a little" of something we know is bad (i.e. alcohol, coffee, fast food etc) is ok.  No, it's still a poison.  Personally, I wouldn't consume "just a little" rat poison, even if it was such a small amount that I knew it would not kill me.  In any case, the tree would want as much fruit as possible eaten - more opportunities for the seed to be spread and wind up somewhere in perfect growing conditions to continue the species.

I'd be lying if I said most of my activity on this site hasn't been because I read your posts and they hit so closely to home.  I just wanted you to see there might be another path for you should this low VA diet not work out.  If you'd like to connect and hear more of my story, I'd be happy to share with you.  I can also put you in touch with another person who took the same drug (Accutane) and wound up in a very similar situation with his eyes, and has improved dramatically in the last 6 months on this diet.  That would be two separate sources who have a similar history and experience as you.  Not sure how much you have in common with Grant.  I understand that it's natural to only want to surround yourself with people with similar beliefs and on the same path, but why not at least get more info on an alternate way of thinking?  You can then decide for yourself what you believe.  Here is my email: michele.martin1026@gmail.com.  I will edit and remove in a couple days, so save it just in case you're not ready to talk now but want to chat in the future.  

Hi @michele,

I don't want to debate this point by point as I think debates in science are nearly useless. The outcomes in the real-world is going to decides it. Nature has the last word on it.

 

 

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on May 5, 2021, 2:01 pm

@are The current understanding of human health suggests that we need a variety of nutrients in varying amounts.  Some of those amounts are very small (trace minerals).  The needs for nutrients also differ among individuals based on all kinds of factors.  Someone who expends a lot of energy needs to consume more energy, someone who breaks down muscle quickly has a higher demand for the constituent parts of muscle (protein).  Similarly, there may be very different demands for Vitamin A among individuals based on their lifestyle and health history.  A small number is still a non-zero number, and blood tests offer only a small window into the functioning of the body, so it's going to be very difficult to irrefutably prove that Vitamin A is not used by the body based on blood tests (especially when the test value is non-zero), and when it is essentially impossible to eat a diet completely devoid of Vitamin A or carotene.  The lower the blood values and the longer Grant sticks to his diet, the more compelling his hypothesis becomes, but I don't think it's going to reach the level of proof.  I would be much more convinced if he had a liver biopsy that showed essentially zero Vitamin A stores alongside normal health.

Quote from michele on May 5, 2021, 2:01 pm

@ggenereux2014

Don't want to debate?  Your books are essentially you debating that VA is a poison.  I thought that was the purpose of this forum?  But alright, I can see I've worn out my welcome here.  I do sincerely appreciate the time you took to read and respond to my posts.

It's been nice chatting with everyone and do hope you all find your remedy, whatever that may be.  

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on May 5, 2021, 2:32 pm

@michele "Let's put aside our difference of opinion with regards to evolution. I'm still plenty entitled to an opinion and believe I've made a few decent points here."

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it doesn't mean it's worth a pretty penny, let alone two.  You don't seem to understand that evolutionary biology is fundamental to understanding most of the things we're discussing here, so we can't just set aside the topic of evolution and continue to have this discussion.  There are disagreements among scientists about many of the very fine details of evolution, but not about any of the basic tenets of evolution that I've been describing.  You are essentially pitting your opinion against the scientific research community...who do you think has more knowledge on the subject?

I'm grateful that you can form clear, logical arguments, which many people are unable to do, but unfortunately a lot of the information you're putting into those arguments is blatantly wrong, as understood by the vast majority of scientists.

Everything is toxic at a high enough dose.  Oxygen can be toxic.  Water can be toxic.  Fruit can definitely be toxic.  Poisons are just those substances for which the human body has essentially zero tolerance before it becomes toxic.

"...the tree would want as much fruit as possible eaten - more opportunities for the seed to be spread and wind up somewhere in perfect growing conditions to continue the species."

It is true that a plant that produces X amount of fruit would optimize its use of energy if every one of its X number of fruits were eaten and distributed.  However, before the plant produces X amount of fruit, it has to decide what value X optimizes reproduction for a given amount of energy expended in producing that fruit - the plant has limited energy.  If X is too low, the plant has suboptimal reproduction.  If X is too high, the plant has suboptimal energy expenditure.  Therefore, the plant "tries" (through natural selection) to produce enough fruit to optimize both of these variables, while retaining enough energy for growth and maintenance of itself so that it can continue to produce fruit in future seasons.

Once again, you have way oversimplified a complex topic and come to the wrong conclusion.

Quote from salt on May 5, 2021, 4:24 pm

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on May 5, 2021, 12:52 pm

@salt The storage site for toxins that can't be excreted fast enough tends to be the fatty tissues, which is where carotenoids and metals end up, whereas critical nutrients are often stored in the liver.  Excess Vitamin A winds up in the fatty tissues, but the primary pool is in the liver where things like B vitamins also reside.  The location of storage makes all the difference in our interpretation of why it's there.

I'm not sure what your point is about the conversion of beta carotene to retinol being uncomplicated.  The simplicity of a chemical process does not mean it's good or bad in a given context, and it says nothing about the actual rate of conversion.  Beta carotene is known to be cleaved asymmetrically at times, leading to compounds that are potentially even more problematic than beta carotene itself...so apparently simplicity doesn't guarantee proper cleavage.

Yeah maybe you're right. I don't know a lot about liver storage of things. 

My point about the conversion is that it's a very simple process and not some kind of sophisticiated multi-stage process that involves half a dozen enzymes to create a new rare molecule, but rather that it is just one molecule being carved down the middle into two. You're right that doesn't necessarily mean much unto itself, I'm just saying that the fact that we convert it doesn't necessarily mean that we need the conversion end product. A possible alternative explanation is that we need to cleave it before we can metabolize it and excrete it. Can we excrete beta-carotene, do we have a way to detoxfiy it without first turning it into retinal?

Quote from lil chick on May 6, 2021, 4:58 am

3 points here:

1.  I think we cleave carotene in order to store it.   Because once cleaved (for some reason) then it is no longer a pigment.   It is no longer orange.  Pigments are pesky things.  If you have a nice new wooden chair without a finish on it, and you swipe some pigments across it, you can't just clean them off.  They enter the matrix of the surface of the chair.  (like my picture of the tupperware stained with tomato sauce).   You are going to have to sand it off.  (cut to all of our faces peeling).  My bet is that if you can't cleave carotenes (as they say, some can't) you probably shouldn't eat them!  (btw, cats can't cleave, and cat kidney failure is rampant).

2. I stood in line at the store wondering about some of the things I wrote about yesterday.  I'm thankful that this thread exists, and I'm not sure everything I believe (such as VA not having use) IS right.  So I'm glad we are debating. When I first arrived here I really thought of VA as a "weapon".  For instance, I have often wondered if VA is rushed to the site of vaccinations in order to "poison" the "interlopers".   I have often thought that maybe this is why the VA-toxic might have extra trouble with vax.  And why some would call VA overload "an over-active immune system".   However, thus far it appears that lowering VA hasn't cut back on people's immune response.  In fact, many report feeling like their immune systems works BETTER with lower VA.

3.  Regarding meat fats, here is my theory.  I think that beef fat could definitely be as high as butter.   But that butter itself could vary.   I think that milk probably contains vitamin A because when the fats from the mother animal are transferred into the liquid to feed the baby, the fats are *already infiltrated* with vitamin A.   It's not that the body stacks milk with VA, it's that the cow's fat is infiltrated.  And if the mother has lower stores in her fat, then the milk has lower stores.  If the mother has higher stores in her fat then the milk has higher stores.   I would bet that a cow's butter and her meat fat have the same VA levels.  Would that stop me from eating meat fat:  no.  It is impossible to live in this world without getting some VA.

Quote from michele on May 6, 2021, 6:52 am

@wavygravygadzooks

I like simplicity.  🙂  Perhaps health is not as complex and complicated as we think its is.  I do not believe that only those of us with expensive years of schooling and scientific degrees are the ones privy to the knowledge that leads to good health.  I believe that we are all born with the knowingness we need, and that much of this has unfortunately been sucked out of us via social conditioning and indoctrination.  If we can strip this away, we can get back to basics, like every other species on this earth.

I am willing to consider that I might be wrong, but for now, I enjoy no pain and I'm at peace with the path I'm on.  Should my situation change, I will of course reconsider.  You seem to have all the answers, so I have no doubt that you will find your way.

This will be my last post here.  

Quote from lil chick on May 6, 2021, 7:54 am

I understand that you might have said all you want to say right now, @michele.   I've read it all.   thanks for your participation here and i do hope that in the long run this isn't your last post on the site.