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Egg progress reports

#1 · February 8, 2023, 4:25 am

Quote from Andrew B on February 8, 2023, 4:25 am
Anecdotal egg report after 10 months of eating 3-4 eggs a day most of the time and reducing high carotenoids and vitamin A in my diet for 2 years 7 months. The healing and improvements keep continuing with 3-4 eggs a day for more choline and phospholipids. Some egg supply issues here in UK so probably nearer 2-3 eggs a day lately. I also eat less pancakes in winter. Fat digestion much better now. I used to struggle a bit with butter, chocolate, coconut, fatty bacon and cheese. Now there's no problem. Likeliest reason for me would be improved bile flow.

The digestive system works much more smoothly with increased choline and betaine. Sometimes 2 bowel movements a day to reduce the Vitamin A faster. Seems to correspond with egg and/or pancake intake. 40 years of issues and now it's working better. I'm also eating quinoa, fermented organic beetroot juice, organic spelt wholemeal and sourdough bread for betaine. Eye and mouth dryness has totally gone. I metabolise all the colour in the beetroot juice so kidneys I suspect working better. Increased B1 and B5 foods like sunflower seed 'milk', chicken, mushrooms, avocados and eggs may be helping too. I can also tolerate beans and eat far more cruciferous vegetables than before.

Mood and libido continue to improve. My liver is making hormones better it seems. Lamb kidneys and haggis with lamb lobes also found to be helpful. Kidneys are very high in choline. Choline is the main precursor to betaine and it helps maintain water balance. I also feel capable of overcoming obstacles much better now and getting some exercise by walking to the park and up the small hill. Loads of people eating some eggs on top of lowering vitamin A and finding a stronger detox, resolving symptoms and healing. No need to take so many supplements when you have better absorption which has also been noted by me and others. No need to push the detox with high protein, high fibre, high fat or high beef whilst you replenish choline. Moderation is the key.

Replenishing the choline with consistent 3-4 eggs a day acts in a medicinal way. It's transformed my body as fast as it can heal. Choline and betaine help male fertility. It's another flip side to the high Vitamin A causing it. Choline very important in pregnancy as well. Liver health is at the centre of it all. Learning how high vitamin A and high fat affect the liver and increase the need for phosphatidylcholine to protect the body from the bile salts. Easy to understand why stress reducing choline is so bad for general health and often comes with a detoxing illness. Another few months and I'm hoping to finish the Vit A reduction and will do a final report. A little eczema still and sleep could be better. I've healed most of the things I wanted to.

Anecdotal egg report after 10 months of eating 3-4 eggs a day most of the time and reducing high carotenoids and vitamin A in my diet for 2 years 7 months. The healing and improvements keep continuing with 3-4 eggs a day for more choline and phospholipids. Some egg supply issues here in UK so probably nearer 2-3 eggs a day lately. I also eat less pancakes in winter. Fat digestion much better now. I used to struggle a bit with butter, chocolate, coconut, fatty bacon and cheese. Now there's no problem. Likeliest reason for me would be improved bile flow.

The digestive system works much more smoothly with increased choline and betaine. Sometimes 2 bowel movements a day to reduce the Vitamin A faster. Seems to correspond with egg and/or pancake intake. 40 years of issues and now it's working better. I'm also eating quinoa, fermented organic beetroot juice, organic spelt wholemeal and sourdough bread for betaine. Eye and mouth dryness has totally gone. I metabolise all the colour in the beetroot juice so kidneys I suspect working better. Increased B1 and B5 foods like sunflower seed 'milk', chicken, mushrooms, avocados and eggs may be helping too. I can also tolerate beans and eat far more cruciferous vegetables than before.

Mood and libido continue to improve. My liver is making hormones better it seems. Lamb kidneys and haggis with lamb lobes also found to be helpful. Kidneys are very high in choline. Choline is the main precursor to betaine and it helps maintain water balance. I also feel capable of overcoming obstacles much better now and getting some exercise by walking to the park and up the small hill. Loads of people eating some eggs on top of lowering vitamin A and finding a stronger detox, resolving symptoms and healing. No need to take so many supplements when you have better absorption which has also been noted by me and others. No need to push the detox with high protein, high fibre, high fat or high beef whilst you replenish choline. Moderation is the key.

Replenishing the choline with consistent 3-4 eggs a day acts in a medicinal way. It's transformed my body as fast as it can heal. Choline and betaine help male fertility. It's another flip side to the high Vitamin A causing it. Choline very important in pregnancy as well. Liver health is at the centre of it all. Learning how high vitamin A and high fat affect the liver and increase the need for phosphatidylcholine to protect the body from the bile salts. Easy to understand why stress reducing choline is so bad for general health and often comes with a detoxing illness. Another few months and I'm hoping to finish the Vit A reduction and will do a final report. A little eczema still and sleep could be better. I've healed most of the things I wanted to.

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#2 · February 8, 2023, 12:32 pm

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on February 8, 2023, 12:32 pm
@andrew-b

Congratulations on feeling better.

Questions for clarification:

"Fat digestion much better now. I used to struggle a bit with butter, chocolate, coconut, fatty bacon and cheese. Now there's no problem."

How is it better now? How did you use to struggle with those foods? Intestinal distress? Fat malabsorption (as evidenced by appearance of stool)? Other non-intestinal symptoms?

"The digestive system works much more smoothly with increased choline and betaine. Sometimes 2 bowel movements a day to reduce the Vitamin A faster."

How is it working more smoothly? Do you just mean more frequent bowel movements? Did you used to be constipated (less than 1 BM per day)? How do we know definitively that having more than 1 BM per day reduces Vitamin A faster?

"I metabolise all the colour in the beetroot juice so kidneys I suspect working better."

This is quite compelling if you used to get obviously pigmented from beetroot juice...seems like one of the stronger indicators of improvement.

"Kidneys are very high in choline."

Aren't kidneys also much higher in Vitamin A than eggs? One data source says they are 2x higher in Vitamin A than eggs (by weight). How often have you been eating kidneys, and how much? Between egg and kidney consumption, is your diet still "low" in Vitamin A? Most of the symptoms I associate with Vitamin A toxicity and depletion (dry skin, nail, mucus membrane, yellow diarrhea, etc.) appeared only after I reduced Vitamin A to nearly zero, which is the main reason I continue to wonder how one can confidently distinguish between improvement and simply stopping the outflow of stored Vitamin A when your diet continues to include the amounts of Vitamin A found in several eggs and kidney.

"No need to push the detox with high protein, high fibre, high fat or high beef whilst you replenish choline. Moderation is the key."

If choline "increases detox" and you are now having more BMs each day to "reduce the Vitamin A faster", how is your approach more moderate than eating "high" protein/fiber/fat/beef?

"Learning how high vitamin A and high fat affect the liver and increase the need for phosphatidylcholine to protect the body from the bile salts."

Do you mean simultaneous high Vitamin A intake + high fat intake is the problem? Or do you mean that high fat intake also increases the need for PC in the absence of Vitamin A intake? If you mean the latter, what support do you have for that idea?

@andrew-b

Congratulations on feeling better.

Questions for clarification:

"Fat digestion much better now. I used to struggle a bit with butter, chocolate, coconut, fatty bacon and cheese. Now there's no problem."

How is it better now? How did you use to struggle with those foods? Intestinal distress? Fat malabsorption (as evidenced by appearance of stool)? Other non-intestinal symptoms?

"The digestive system works much more smoothly with increased choline and betaine. Sometimes 2 bowel movements a day to reduce the Vitamin A faster."

How is it working more smoothly? Do you just mean more frequent bowel movements? Did you used to be constipated (less than 1 BM per day)? How do we know definitively that having more than 1 BM per day reduces Vitamin A faster?

"I metabolise all the colour in the beetroot juice so kidneys I suspect working better."

This is quite compelling if you used to get obviously pigmented from beetroot juice...seems like one of the stronger indicators of improvement.

"Kidneys are very high in choline."

Aren't kidneys also much higher in Vitamin A than eggs? One data source says they are 2x higher in Vitamin A than eggs (by weight). How often have you been eating kidneys, and how much? Between egg and kidney consumption, is your diet still "low" in Vitamin A? Most of the symptoms I associate with Vitamin A toxicity and depletion (dry skin, nail, mucus membrane, yellow diarrhea, etc.) appeared only after I reduced Vitamin A to nearly zero, which is the main reason I continue to wonder how one can confidently distinguish between improvement and simply stopping the outflow of stored Vitamin A when your diet continues to include the amounts of Vitamin A found in several eggs and kidney.

"No need to push the detox with high protein, high fibre, high fat or high beef whilst you replenish choline. Moderation is the key."

If choline "increases detox" and you are now having more BMs each day to "reduce the Vitamin A faster", how is your approach more moderate than eating "high" protein/fiber/fat/beef?

"Learning how high vitamin A and high fat affect the liver and increase the need for phosphatidylcholine to protect the body from the bile salts."

Do you mean simultaneous high Vitamin A intake + high fat intake is the problem? Or do you mean that high fat intake also increases the need for PC in the absence of Vitamin A intake? If you mean the latter, what support do you have for that idea?

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#3 · February 9, 2023, 4:30 am

Quote from Andrew B on February 9, 2023, 4:30 am
@wavygravygadzooks Fat digestion. There's no nausea or heavy feeling after eating. Sometimes there was heartburn. Sometimes constipation with dairy. No other signs of fat malabsorption or I might have figured it out in the previous 20 years. Probably quite mild but there nevertheless.

Digestive system smoother. Improved ease of passing stools. Stools are much smoother not so bulky. Bowel movements are at least once a day without fail now. Previously there could be constipation for a day or two. Frequency of bowel movements tends to follow from number of eggs in the day. We dont know for sure if 2 BMs gets rid of Vit A faster. It does seem healthier if 2 or more is normal for babies/healthy children.

Kidney eating not significant amount 50 grams a day for 3 weeks. Lamb kidneys are quite low in Vit A. Beef kidneys a bit higher. The Vitamin A is of no significance once you've read the science of how powerful choline is. I think my diet is still moderately low in Vitamin A. I no longer think it's the key factor. The 1982 Weber study with the 62 year old man was getting rid of over 200,000 IUs of vit A a day on a 4,000 IUs a day intake. Even if some redistribution in his body took place we can guess 100,000 IUs per day might be possible with sufficient protein 120 grams which tends to contain choline also. A little Vitamin A in eggs doesnt stop the detox. I've spoken to about 20 people and many report strong detox symptoms.

Choline increases the detox in a safer way. It's protecting the body from toxicity of the bile salts. This is accepted science see Elliot Overton explaining it or one of the studies Jessica2 and I have posted in the benefits of choline and Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction. It might help reduce leakiness of the intestinal barrier. That's not clear yet. I am saying if you are increasing the detox with choline then you want to be moderate with everything else that also increases the detox. Absorption of nutrients and supplements improves sometimes very quickly as has been reported by others on supplements.

High fat and/or high Vitamin A might be the problem. Mine was both with relatively small amounts of liver. High fat and phosphatidylcholine - there have been a few scientific studies on this showing choline can reverse fatty liver even in spite of high fat diet.

I did 1-2 eggs a day throughout the detox. I've made life changing improvements throughout from a position of having skin peeling off, bleeding capillaries and suspected high Vitamin A. The 1-2 eggs never stopped the detox. The Vitamin A reduction started it and I got eczema from the detox. The 1-2 eggs never stopped that. The consistency of my healing fully supports I've been getting rid of Vitamin A throughout the whole period of 3 years 5 months. Garrett Smith should have believed me because for me I'm being entirely consistent with what I've done. You dont reverse decades of issues by worsening cholestasis. Increasing to 3-4 eggs a day has improved my health further whilst I've still got light eczema. This is life changing support for Vitamin A reduction and choline replenishment (again mentioned in one of Steven Zeisel's choline papers at least).

@wavygravygadzooks Fat digestion. There's no nausea or heavy feeling after eating. Sometimes there was heartburn. Sometimes constipation with dairy. No other signs of fat malabsorption or I might have figured it out in the previous 20 years. Probably quite mild but there nevertheless.

Digestive system smoother. Improved ease of passing stools. Stools are much smoother not so bulky. Bowel movements are at least once a day without fail now. Previously there could be constipation for a day or two. Frequency of bowel movements tends to follow from number of eggs in the day. We dont know for sure if 2 BMs gets rid of Vit A faster. It does seem healthier if 2 or more is normal for babies/healthy children.

Kidney eating not significant amount 50 grams a day for 3 weeks. Lamb kidneys are quite low in Vit A. Beef kidneys a bit higher. The Vitamin A is of no significance once you've read the science of how powerful choline is. I think my diet is still moderately low in Vitamin A. I no longer think it's the key factor. The 1982 Weber study with the 62 year old man was getting rid of over 200,000 IUs of vit A a day on a 4,000 IUs a day intake. Even if some redistribution in his body took place we can guess 100,000 IUs per day might be possible with sufficient protein 120 grams which tends to contain choline also. A little Vitamin A in eggs doesnt stop the detox. I've spoken to about 20 people and many report strong detox symptoms.

Choline increases the detox in a safer way. It's protecting the body from toxicity of the bile salts. This is accepted science see Elliot Overton explaining it or one of the studies Jessica2 and I have posted in the benefits of choline and Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction. It might help reduce leakiness of the intestinal barrier. That's not clear yet. I am saying if you are increasing the detox with choline then you want to be moderate with everything else that also increases the detox. Absorption of nutrients and supplements improves sometimes very quickly as has been reported by others on supplements.

High fat and/or high Vitamin A might be the problem. Mine was both with relatively small amounts of liver. High fat and phosphatidylcholine - there have been a few scientific studies on this showing choline can reverse fatty liver even in spite of high fat diet.

I did 1-2 eggs a day throughout the detox. I've made life changing improvements throughout from a position of having skin peeling off, bleeding capillaries and suspected high Vitamin A. The 1-2 eggs never stopped the detox. The Vitamin A reduction started it and I got eczema from the detox. The 1-2 eggs never stopped that. The consistency of my healing fully supports I've been getting rid of Vitamin A throughout the whole period of 3 years 5 months. Garrett Smith should have believed me because for me I'm being entirely consistent with what I've done. You dont reverse decades of issues by worsening cholestasis. Increasing to 3-4 eggs a day has improved my health further whilst I've still got light eczema. This is life changing support for Vitamin A reduction and choline replenishment (again mentioned in one of Steven Zeisel's choline papers at least).

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#4 · February 9, 2023, 2:02 pm

Quote from wavygravygadzooks on February 9, 2023, 2:02 pm
@andrew-b

Thanks for the response. Your story/ideas become more compelling once you've fleshed out more of the details, and I have zero doubt that choline is essential for all kinds of things. However, I still take issue with a couple statements in your response:

"The Vitamin A is of no significance once you've read the science of how powerful choline is. I think my diet is still moderately low in Vitamin A. I no longer think it's the key factor. The 1982 Weber study with the 62 year old man was getting rid of over 200,000 IUs of vit A a day on a 4,000 IUs a day intake."

I'd say you're really reaching here...we have no idea where all that Vitamin A went in that person because nobody measured the contents of his stool, adipose tissue, or other organs/muscles. Maybe he got rid of a bunch, or, more likely based on how long it seems to take everyone here to get rid of apparent Vitamin A issues, it just got redistributed in his body. Choline is critical but I doubt it's a magic bullet for Vitamin A toxicity, which I think is what a lot of us are taking issue with in your proclamations.

"Choline increases the detox in a safer way."

Similar to my above comment, it seems like you are saying the more choline you get, the faster you detox, and the safer it is, as though there were no ceiling to it. Choline is no doubt critical, but I don't think it's as simple as more is better, or that it makes you invincible to Vitamin A intake (which is kind of how your comments are coming across). You need sufficient amounts to properly metabolize Vitamin A, but above that threshold of sufficiency I doubt there's much evidence to indicate that more is better. Every nutrient seems to follow a U-shaped curve (deficiency/optimum/toxicity), and the "more is better" numbers-on-a-paper argument is what derailed Paul Saladino from succeeding on a carnivore diet IMO, and is what bites people in the ass when they ramp up their plant intake mistakenly thinking they are absorbing a cornucopia of goodness...quite the opposite.

@andrew-b

Thanks for the response. Your story/ideas become more compelling once you've fleshed out more of the details, and I have zero doubt that choline is essential for all kinds of things. However, I still take issue with a couple statements in your response:

"The Vitamin A is of no significance once you've read the science of how powerful choline is. I think my diet is still moderately low in Vitamin A. I no longer think it's the key factor. The 1982 Weber study with the 62 year old man was getting rid of over 200,000 IUs of vit A a day on a 4,000 IUs a day intake."

I'd say you're really reaching here...we have no idea where all that Vitamin A went in that person because nobody measured the contents of his stool, adipose tissue, or other organs/muscles. Maybe he got rid of a bunch, or, more likely based on how long it seems to take everyone here to get rid of apparent Vitamin A issues, it just got redistributed in his body. Choline is critical but I doubt it's a magic bullet for Vitamin A toxicity, which I think is what a lot of us are taking issue with in your proclamations.

"Choline increases the detox in a safer way."

Similar to my above comment, it seems like you are saying the more choline you get, the faster you detox, and the safer it is, as though there were no ceiling to it. Choline is no doubt critical, but I don't think it's as simple as more is better, or that it makes you invincible to Vitamin A intake (which is kind of how your comments are coming across). You need sufficient amounts to properly metabolize Vitamin A, but above that threshold of sufficiency I doubt there's much evidence to indicate that more is better. Every nutrient seems to follow a U-shaped curve (deficiency/optimum/toxicity), and the "more is better" numbers-on-a-paper argument is what derailed Paul Saladino from succeeding on a carnivore diet IMO, and is what bites people in the ass when they ramp up their plant intake mistakenly thinking they are absorbing a cornucopia of goodness...quite the opposite.

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#5 · February 10, 2023, 8:00 am

@wavygravygadzooks I did mention the redistribution aspect. Unfortunately, this 62 year old man is the best we have for seeing how much Vitamin A is eliminated from the liver. It does show the liver's capability to get rid of a lot one way or the other. Choline in studies has recovered people from fatty liver as well so it seems we are capable of detoxing a lot. Even if I estimated it's 15,000 IU of vitamin A per day then the egg Vitamin A is 1/60 of that per egg. Again, I suggest choline and eggs is part of a varied diet. It's the most important thing for reducing liver toxicity. I've never suggested anything is a magic bullet without reducing vitamin A intake.

I definitely did not say the more choline you get the faster you detox. I would never advise that folly. In fact, people will recognise that I've said find the right number of eggs for you to replenish choline whether it's 1,2, 3 or 4 a day. I seem to be the extreme slightly in that I seemed to need 4 eggs on top of moderate meat intake. Puddleduck also made a progress report and she also went to 4 eggs and what we have in common is gluten issues. Me for a very long time. There may be some people who need more due to genetic SNPs. I'm getting about 900 mgs of choline a day perhaps less now and replenishment took place. At the top end of what is normally required for replenishment per Steven Zeisel's work. I'm all for a balanced varied diet. It could be consequences of the way we have done Vitamin A detox that we're needing so much now. 4 eggs a day seems a lot to me also. I'm settling about 2-3 eggs a day. That seems more appropriate.

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#6 · April 1, 2023, 3:47 am

I would be grateful if members would also add their egg progress reports on this post. I'd suggest at 6 months is a good time scale. Any more reports ?

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#7 · April 1, 2023, 4:08 am

I would be grateful if all you Humpty Dumptys could stop pushing your eggenda on this forum. No wonder people feel better eating all this VA in eggs. So tired of listening to "I'm eating 3-4 eggs per day...". We get it by now, no need to push people who are desperate to get better into this experiment that lacks any foundation (sorry, except for a bad experiment on some 62 year old ages ago). Come back with some blood results before trying to be the new Grant Genereux.

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#8 · April 1, 2023, 4:15 am

We had to stop eating more than one egg every two weeks. And we are not starting again. We are not allergic to them and ate at least 10 eggs per week for each of us before going low vA. Something is wrong with eggs now.

I don't think that with that amount we were choline deficient then.

Trying to keep choline intake high by other means. Lambs brains and scallops. No noticeable vA in that.

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#9 · April 1, 2023, 5:13 am

@ggenereux2014 supports the choline experiment and is interested in whether the choline concept takes off (see 13:45 and 37:00 in his recent survey results video. He has noted that eggs sometimes prevent the detox setback cycle. He also supports the idea of low Vitamin A eggs. I do too but I dont think it's vital to Vitamin A detox. If I thought for a minute that Grant Genereux didn't support us getting feedback on eggs then I wouldn't be posting egg reports. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS4uUZf_lUk

The 62 year old man study is possibly the best we have given it took liver biopsies. I'm not sure what blood results would confirm we are all succeeding perhaps triglycerides, LDL and ALT enzymes. Eggs have about 5-7% of RDA for Vitamin A. The choline is far more helpful. Choline replenishment is helping so many it would be a shame if ad hominem attacks, attempted censorship and ignorance of the minority were to deter more people from experimenting and reporting their results.

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#10 · April 1, 2023, 5:15 am

Have you guys seen that Humpty Dumpty was possibly Richard II of Ireland who was hunch backed and fell off his horse named "The Wall" during a battle and got pummeled by the enemy so badly that he couldn't be fixed?

I wonder if he had VA toxicity causing scoliosis? Personally I think that many royals with mysterious problems were VA-toxic and handed VA toxicity to the next generation, starting them off early with problems like this.

Anyways I'm all for different opinions, especially as things are so early. Sand's opinion, Ourania's, Jenny's, Wavy Gravy, Tim2 etc etc they are all so very important. And of course Andrew's too. It could be that eggs are just what some need and not what others need.

Ourania says something is wrong with eggs, and I've posted about it before. I agree. It's their feed. I think eggs are a very human-to-eat food and if there is something wrong with them we should fix it and not just live without eggs.

I'm sure there is a vast difference between eggs in one country and eggs in another too.

My grandfather lived in a city and kept a few hens in his garage.

Grant started a guinea pig experiment in his garage, but maybe what people should do instead is start a chicken experiment in their back yards! But then again, I LOVE chicken keeping. (thus the name!). here is a good site https://www.backyardchickens.com. However, once I brought up the idea there of growing out low-VA chickens and of course people's eyes crossed because as we know it is a hump to get over the idea that VA could raise to toxic levels.

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Egg progress reports

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