I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
Egg progress reports
Hi @andrew-b, thanks for bringing that to my attention.
Garrett’s statement does not accurately reflect my views. The origins of that are from a few sentences taken out of context from a recent email between Garrett Smith and myself. The original few sentences are:
I've only been casually following the choline /eggs topic on my forum, and have been taking a wait-and-see what happens approach to it. But, I think consuming eggs as a source of choline is kinda nuts. I don't understand why they aren't just taking a choline supplement rather than using eggs? I really don't know much about choline. Maybe we can talk about it some time.
Let me try to clear this up.
Firstly, I think the work / experiment regarding using choline is very important. It has the potential of being the most important addition to this project in the last 5+ years. But, of course, we don’t know yet. Therefore, I’m taking a wait-and-see approach to it.
Why is this potentially so important? As I’ve shared several times before, I think the detox setback many people encounter is very serious, and probably the biggest impediment to this project gaining more widespread acceptance. The detox setback is almost a show-stopper. Asking people to take on a low vA diet at the risk of them developing poorer health is just not acceptable to me. This is not just following the “first, do no harm” principle. Having personally gone through multiple periods of “autoimmune” disease flare ups, I very clearly know the dangers in it. I also fully appreciate the “detox setback” has the potential to cause long term harm.
Over the last 5 five years or so, I think we’ve gotten a reasonably good understanding as to why the detox setback cycle happens. Basically, it’s caused by a surge in the release of vA from the liver. As people take on a low vA diet, the liver is doing its best to normalise itself and more aggressively starts dumping its vA stores. Different people respond differently of course. Some have little to no “detox” setback, whereas for others it can be severe. The “detox” setback is almost a hidden trap. You’re damned if you don’t take on a low vA diet, and you could be even more damned if you do. There are many factors involved.
Up until now, we sure haven’t made a lot of progress on what to do about the detox setback or how to reliably prevent it. We’ve had a standard list of suggested mitigations, such as using activated charcoal, consuming enough red meat, zinc and taurine supplements, and making regular blood/plasma donations. Yet, that’s been rather hit and miss, and not reliably preventing the detox setback.
The potential of using choline.
Over the years (prior to yours and Jeny's work) there have been other people who have reported reversing their detox setback by eating eggs, so there's definitely something beneficial to using eggs /choline. Of course, there is a lot more supporting evidence as you’ve shared in this forum.
Additionally, I’ve talked about this patent before on a Therapy for retinoid pathogenesis here:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/eggs-as-part-of-vitamin-a-reduction/?part=5#postid-19160
The present invention discloses a pharmaceutical composition and a method of treating retinoid induced pathogenesis. The pathological effect of retinoid is ameliorated by a suitable dose of a rescuing agent selected from the group consisting of choline chloride, methionine, betaine, biotin and inositol, the rescuing agent having the property of preventing formation of fatty liver.
What’s really intriguing about this patent is that it is showing choline ( and the other compounds) to be effective in reducing the harm from direct retinoic acid poisoning, and not just that of vA.
I think retinoic acid is really the biggest factor in causing the “detox” setback cycle.
A while back I also shared this news report here in Alberta about the oldest woman in the province, I think she was ~ 110 yo. She also ate 1 or 2 eggs per day.
She said her diet was eggs and potatoes, and to change it up she'd have potatoes and eggs.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/barrhead-woman-celebrates-110th-birthday-1.3828631
Clearly, eating eggs for decades did not end badly for her.
Eggs as a source of choline
When I stated:
But, I think consuming eggs as a source of choline is kinda nuts.
That statement just reflects my own bias. Do I think eating eggs is terrible? No, I don’t. But, they are definitely not for me. My own personal goal is to go 10 years with virtually no vA in my diet. Therefore, for me, eggs are definitely off the menu. Additionally, I think modern day factory farmed eggs being loaded up with beta carotene to brightly colour them are much different than eggs from 50 years ago and add an additional risk. So, once again, for me, I’d just go with the alternative of getting choline from a supplement. However, that’s just my opinion on it and what I think about it does not matter. What matters here is what gets proven out in the real world experiences with people consuming eggs.
So, in a nutshell, I think choline might just end up being a game changer here. It’s early days, and I’m not going to jump to conclusions on it, but I am hopeful. And maybe eating whole eggs might prove out to be better than taking a choline supplement? Of course, I don’t know.
Similarly, I think there is real potential in the findings posted by Tim and others regarding smoking, and low dose niacin. Of course, I don’t think anyone should pick up the smoking habit, and doing so would also be kinda nuts IMO. And, in no way am I recommending that people dose up on niacin either. Some is needed. However, too much, too fast is definitely dangerous.
Grant
Thanks for clarifying your position @ggenereux2014. Garrett Smith is trying to censor and rubbish an experiment that has barely started. He cobbled together a Twitter thread on choline and eggs that clearly illustrated he hadnt read many of the studies because they contradicted the points he was making. He also misread a study on cholinesterase. He somehow suggested introducing acetylcholine hampered bile flow when it's normally phosphatidylcholine that helps. He tries to over simplify a very complex subject.
We have a number of people doing better on eggs and some doing better on supplements. Some need to progress very slowly or simply arent progressing. The lutein sensitivity, tiny Vitamin A sensitivity and glutamate sensitivity being some very difficult problems that in the majority have happened due to the detox. The restrictive diet has backfired for some. And I'm an Admin on the over 2,200 strong Vitamin A Toxicity group on Facebook and have been in the Love Your Liver programme so I have one of the larger lists of contacts to measure my opinion from.
I am approaching the one year anniversary of increasing my egg intake. I've largely succeeded on this detox eating at least 1-2 eggs a day. Most of my clients have been eating eggs. It's not a deterrence to detoxing vitamin A. I think the nutrient content of eggs (and I'm leaning to choline, phosphatidylcholine and biotin being the key ones for fatty liver and bile flow assistance) is actually very beneficial in the context of avoiding higher Vitamin A and higher carotenoids. I think a balanced varied diet is very helpful too and in trying to help the liver detox avoidance of moderate Vitamin A has not been suggested in the limited science available. Rather we have antidotes or nutrients that help the liver far more.
I would just add that a little intuition could go a long way. People have been eating eggs for thousands of years while the dramatic increase in chronic diseases happened in the last 50 years. Eggs cannot be the culprit for that reason alone. I think its an important experiment to use eggs as part of a vA detox diet so keep doing what you are doing.
I think I am close to two months with eggs added back in. Short story is I am doing better with them included in the diet.
Doing 3 eggs a day, 2 breakfast and 1 dinner. I have almost moved past where it will cause diarrhea, eggs are really good at this! Will happen if I have 2 eggs for breakfast and 1 for lunch, but not if I have the 1 at dinner. But I can do 3 at breakfast now and not get an bile acid diarrhea attack few hours later. Seems like big bile dump inducers close together in time cause my digestion havoc.
Digestion, bowel movements, sleep and skin all doing better. Feeling strong at the gym. New GF and libido is strong.
Looking forward to getting full body sun soon which should boost thing, I always fare better in summer over winter.
Last summer I was doing great on beef, rice and beans, hit the 4 year mark in Nov, and seems I went downhill fast, definitely wasn't not eating enough beef for choline, would be one issue. Digestion was wrecked and blood in bowel movements.
Everything is back to improving now and following up via doctor to do colonoscopy and confirm nothing else is going on.
So diet is still very lowish VA, except the 3 eggs
Also in the back on my mind was finally catching covid last August, maybe there is some long covid symptoms thrown in there too, that are slowly dissipating.
I had covid in Feb of this year and it was an intestinal bug for me. It really changed my gut as if it had destroyed all the bacteria. I lost my appetite and it took weeks to get back to normal. I wouldn't be surprised if your gut problems after being sick were related. I had coworkers who had more intestinal symptoms, too.
I was eating 2 eggs for breakfast but now I am eating just one.
Quote from Andrew B on April 15, 2024, 2:26 amI've been eating 2-4 eggs per day now for 2 years. This will probably be my last feedback report as I'm well again. A little dry skin at the shins. Occasional itching. I did reintroduce organic spelt into my diet at the same time as the eggs after 20 years at least of gluten intolerance. The spelt giving me a source of betaine. I also did increase B1 foods at same time by drinking sunflower seed 'milk'. Pork (if religious beliefs tolerate it) and oats and macadamia nuts are other sources.Eating more eggs resolved constipation, all the signs are bile flow was better particularly as fat digestion is extremely good now. My hormone health has improved also. Happier, better libido, better circulation, better cognition, doing multiplication in my head and more energy. The notion that choline is putting more Vitamin A in my liver and it's staying there is completely bogus. Many of these issues have been with me decades and never improved on plenty of vitamin A. Bile flow improving the detox is what's been happening over the last 2 years and things continue to get better. I've been experimenting 25 years and this is the best thing I've ever done. I can sprint without getting out of breath and for a former asthmatic with chronic rhinitis that's saying something.Eggs will not be tolerated by everybody just like other foods. I think sulphur being my issue early on which improved after one year of the detox. I have no problems with sulphites now in moderation. In general eggs are one of the most nutritious foods. If your liver detox practitioner says otherwise I'd run a mile (and I can now). Each individual needs to be aware of their own gut issues like FODMAP, histamine foods and liberators, oxalates, salicylates, glutamate, nitrates, yeast infections, lipopolysaccharides, bacterial dysbiosis and so on. Sometimes it takes a lot of guesswork or the right testing to adopt the right approach. Mould/mold in your environment could be a big problem too.Eliminate high sources at first but maintain vitamin A particularly from meat, eggs and a little dairy when tolerated. Replenishing minerals helpful at first, then choline and betaine food sources. Find your egg number from 1-4 eggs a day is what I suggest. Go low and slow on most things. Find a balanced nutritious diet where possible. Eat some foods or oils with Vitamin C, Vitamin E, coenzyme Q10, betaine and B12. Keep the oxalates lowish. Keep the nitrates lowish too. Watch Meri Arthur's videos for why (Weak Therefore Strong on youtube). Personally and from her work I think B5 particularly and B1 to some extent may be the weak spots for me. B5 helps sleep, hair, energy and numerous other functions. Thanks to the Facebook Vitamin A Toxicity group for the teamwork and the search for the solutions.Key improvements: Recovered from suspected Schamberg's disease. No longer have bleeding capillaries. Skin discoloration much improved. Hair very slowly regrowing at front of scalp where hair lost over 20 years ago. Libido and circulation much improved.Minor things I forgot to mention: eyebrows are quite bushy and extend quite far now. I can eat virtually all foods now. Skin is much better on face and sunspots mostly gone or lighter. Weight is good (tended to be underweight before).
What kind of eggs do you buy at the store?
@janelle525 Initially I bought cheap barn eggs figuring they would be less orange as not supplemented. Now I buy free range eggs from slightly healthier chickens and they arent too orange.
Quote from Andrew B on April 15, 2024, 6:17 am@janelle525 Initially I bought cheap barn eggs figuring they would be less orange as not supplemented. Now I buy free range eggs from slightly healthier chickens and they arent too orange.
Thanks, yeah I still think it's good to avoid the bright orange. I just heard from one of Karen Hurd's students who is also a health coach now say that she couldn't tolerate eggs until she found some that were 100% pastured, no supplemental feed. She thought it was the soy, but maybe it's the supplemental vitamin A.