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Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction

#1 · November 5, 2022, 2:21 am

Quote from Andrew B on November 5, 2022, 2:21 am

@ggenereux2014 Let's think about eggs logically in connection with living and Vitamin A reduction (VAR). Some say Vitamin A reduction is more important than living itself and that's okay too. The fluffy stuff first. Eggs are useful for baking and making apple sponges, pancakes, French toast, fishcakes, beef burgers and having with a fryup. Butter is very useful in baking also although you can make an apple sponge with eggs and no butter. Butter is the preferred healthy option for spreading on your bread, toast, scones, potatoes and vegetables. Butter is tasty for frying mushrooms.

Choline first. Someone doing a very simple VAR could eat only beef and a few beans and get plenty of choline. 400 grams of beef each day plus 150 grams of beans would get 520 mgs of choline per day. That's average and possible perhaps more so for men. To get much more choline for various reasons you would need to eat about 800 grams of beef. Some men (and women) do eat this much so it's possible. Some people have done this and get good results reducing vitamin A and improving liver health. You would have to think the choline (and serine) is helping the person and not hindering. It could be the protein and zinc as the main factors and the choline could be the hindrance. It seems unlikely because adequate intake of choline is meant to be 550 mgs for men and 425 mgs for women. The upper limit is nearer 3.5 grams.

A man could eat the first 400 grams of beef and not be able to each much more. So he chooses to eat just over 3 eggs a day to give him the equivalent of the extra 400 mgs of choline. The high beef eating man succeeded probably in all likelihood because of the choline so a lower eating beef man eating 3 protein rich eggs with selenium, folate, B2, zinc and other factors is just as likely to succeed all things being equal.

Vitamin A second. One tablepoon of butter gives you about 325 IUs of vitamin A (incidentally also 2.7 mgs of choline, all fat and no protein). Two scrambled eggs will give you 564 IUs of vitamin A so 282 IUs per egg. A fried egg will give you 330 IUs (146 mgs of choline to help you digest the lower fat in eggs and loads of protein). The USDA gives lower figures for vitamin A in eggs generally but let's keep baking for now. They are roughly equivalent with the higher numbers I found. If you're currently having 2 tablespoons of butter each day on your bread and succeeding with VAR then there's no worry in switching to 2 eggs on the basis of the vitamin A. You could even mix and match one egg and one tablespoon of butter each day. Talk about living on the edge

Thirdly and lastly cholesterol. There's about 185 mgs of cholesterol in one large egg. There's about 31 mgs of cholesterol in one tablespoon of butter. In 100 grams of beef burger there's 89 mgs of cholesterol. So going back to the man eating 800 grams of beef each day in a beef burger format then he's getting 712 mgs of cholesterol yet he's still succeeding with VAR. The man eating 400 grams of beef adding the 3 eggs will get 911 mgs of cholesterol. Is this man who is doing VAR and is probably in the healthiest section of the population now going to keel over and die because of the extra 199 mgs of dietary cholesterol ? Bearing in mind his detox and digestion systems may be working better than the high beef eating man (because of the lecithin in the eggs). The high beef eating man would also get 62 mgs of cholesterol if he enjoys 2 tablespoons of butter each day. Did I say enjoy ? Sorry about that. What was I thinking ? God forbid we actually enjoy eating and living.

Dietary cholesterol (esterified form) is not the same as endogenously produced cholesterol (free form). Cholesterol is essential for life. It's complicated though. Do the extra nutrients in eggs like selenium, choline and folate actually compensate for the loss in particular of zinc in beef ? In Japan they eat nearly one egg per person per day and live the longest but there are many factors involved. At the level of 3 eggs per day the man eating 400 grams of beef still skews the balance of his diet to beef rightly or wrongly. There seems to be a small risk in dietary studies from eating more and more cholesterol. Eating lots of eggs may be part of an unhealthy diet and therefore the mortality risk increases. But what I want to know is whether it's bad for longevity for this now very healthy man doing VAR to eat 3 eggs a day ? Life, experimentation and vitamin A reduction continues.

@ggenereux2014 Let's think about eggs logically in connection with living and Vitamin A reduction (VAR). Some say Vitamin A reduction is more important than living itself and that's okay too. The fluffy stuff first. Eggs are useful for baking and making apple sponges, pancakes, French toast, fishcakes, beef burgers and having with a fryup. Butter is very useful in baking also although you can make an apple sponge with eggs and no butter. Butter is the preferred healthy option for spreading on your bread, toast, scones, potatoes and vegetables. Butter is tasty for frying mushrooms.

Choline first. Someone doing a very simple VAR could eat only beef and a few beans and get plenty of choline. 400 grams of beef each day plus 150 grams of beans would get 520 mgs of choline per day. That's average and possible perhaps more so for men. To get much more choline for various reasons you would need to eat about 800 grams of beef. Some men (and women) do eat this much so it's possible. Some people have done this and get good results reducing vitamin A and improving liver health. You would have to think the choline (and serine) is helping the person and not hindering. It could be the protein and zinc as the main factors and the choline could be the hindrance. It seems unlikely because adequate intake of choline is meant to be 550 mgs for men and 425 mgs for women. The upper limit is nearer 3.5 grams.

A man could eat the first 400 grams of beef and not be able to each much more. So he chooses to eat just over 3 eggs a day to give him the equivalent of the extra 400 mgs of choline. The high beef eating man succeeded probably in all likelihood because of the choline so a lower eating beef man eating 3 protein rich eggs with selenium, folate, B2, zinc and other factors is just as likely to succeed all things being equal.

Vitamin A second. One tablepoon of butter gives you about 325 IUs of vitamin A (incidentally also 2.7 mgs of choline, all fat and no protein). Two scrambled eggs will give you 564 IUs of vitamin A so 282 IUs per egg. A fried egg will give you 330 IUs (146 mgs of choline to help you digest the lower fat in eggs and loads of protein). The USDA gives lower figures for vitamin A in eggs generally but let's keep baking for now. They are roughly equivalent with the higher numbers I found. If you're currently having 2 tablespoons of butter each day on your bread and succeeding with VAR then there's no worry in switching to 2 eggs on the basis of the vitamin A. You could even mix and match one egg and one tablespoon of butter each day. Talk about living on the edge

Thirdly and lastly cholesterol. There's about 185 mgs of cholesterol in one large egg. There's about 31 mgs of cholesterol in one tablespoon of butter. In 100 grams of beef burger there's 89 mgs of cholesterol. So going back to the man eating 800 grams of beef each day in a beef burger format then he's getting 712 mgs of cholesterol yet he's still succeeding with VAR. The man eating 400 grams of beef adding the 3 eggs will get 911 mgs of cholesterol. Is this man who is doing VAR and is probably in the healthiest section of the population now going to keel over and die because of the extra 199 mgs of dietary cholesterol ? Bearing in mind his detox and digestion systems may be working better than the high beef eating man (because of the lecithin in the eggs). The high beef eating man would also get 62 mgs of cholesterol if he enjoys 2 tablespoons of butter each day. Did I say enjoy ? Sorry about that. What was I thinking ? God forbid we actually enjoy eating and living.

Dietary cholesterol (esterified form) is not the same as endogenously produced cholesterol (free form). Cholesterol is essential for life. It's complicated though. Do the extra nutrients in eggs like selenium, choline and folate actually compensate for the loss in particular of zinc in beef ? In Japan they eat nearly one egg per person per day and live the longest but there are many factors involved. At the level of 3 eggs per day the man eating 400 grams of beef still skews the balance of his diet to beef rightly or wrongly. There seems to be a small risk in dietary studies from eating more and more cholesterol. Eating lots of eggs may be part of an unhealthy diet and therefore the mortality risk increases. But what I want to know is whether it's bad for longevity for this now very healthy man doing VAR to eat 3 eggs a day ? Life, experimentation and vitamin A reduction continues.

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#2 · November 5, 2022, 2:25 am

Quote from Andrew B on November 5, 2022, 2:25 am

On the Vitamin A reduction diet I've been doing 4 eggs a day for 6 months now. I do think 1-2 eggs a day throughout the 3 year reduction has been a help rather than a hindrance. An egg has 5-7% of the RDA for Vitamin A. Less than butter at 11% RDA for one tablespoon. Butter didn't entirely agree with me perhaps because of the fat content. So it's easy to see why I gravitated to the eggs with less vitamin A, less fat, more protein, more choline, selenium, biotin, folate and zinc. I also cook with eggs in fishcakes, pancakes, apple sponges and fryups. Easy to eat and cheaper than buying beef which I couldn't eat enough of. I've also been using organic spelt flour and quinoa which supply betaine for the last 6 months.

Eating eggs made me feel fuller and the cravings for beef went away. My digestion has become much more resilient to food reactions. Digestion has improved with easier bowel movements and less rumbling stomach. I feel my mental health has been much better as I deal with living in a poorly soundproofed building and noises from the flat below. My eczema and itching has reduced on the upper body and now is mainly on the lower legs as the detox continues strongly with some bile getting into the blood. Parasympathetic activity has improved with greater relaxation and an orthostatic problem has now resolved. My hair at the back of my neck has thickened up where it had shown signs of thinning.

Choline and betaine together are very helpful for resolving non alcoholic fatty liver disease. They are also very helpful for supplying methylation factors which may be needed with high vit A toxicity and when detoxing from it. You would get better methylation from reducing vit A but you still need extra methylation factors while you get there. Extra choline may be needed by those with celiac problems, gluten/glyphosate intolerance, post menopause, genetic issues, methylation issues and indeed by those with vit A toxicity. The latter being possibly because it causes dryness and causes hypoxia.

Choline helps cell membranes, hypoxia and endothelial cells. Betaine is osmoprotective and helps liver and kidney hydration. Choline is very important for cell membranes being regenerated in the liver throughout vit A reduction. Choline helping digestion in all likelihood helps nutrient absorption and limited studies have shown good results for magnesium and B12. Choline may also help remove copper which often helps in conjunction with vit A reduction. Synthetically it has been used in combination with molybdenum to remove copper. Choline is required to produce acetylcholine a neurotransmitter which helps with memory, mood and intelligence. We need acetylcholine to run the parasympathetic nervous system and it's important to be in this state for healing during a detox. Lack of choline may hamper healing for some.

On the Vitamin A reduction diet I've been doing 4 eggs a day for 6 months now. I do think 1-2 eggs a day throughout the 3 year reduction has been a help rather than a hindrance. An egg has 5-7% of the RDA for Vitamin A. Less than butter at 11% RDA for one tablespoon. Butter didn't entirely agree with me perhaps because of the fat content. So it's easy to see why I gravitated to the eggs with less vitamin A, less fat, more protein, more choline, selenium, biotin, folate and zinc. I also cook with eggs in fishcakes, pancakes, apple sponges and fryups. Easy to eat and cheaper than buying beef which I couldn't eat enough of. I've also been using organic spelt flour and quinoa which supply betaine for the last 6 months.

Eating eggs made me feel fuller and the cravings for beef went away. My digestion has become much more resilient to food reactions. Digestion has improved with easier bowel movements and less rumbling stomach. I feel my mental health has been much better as I deal with living in a poorly soundproofed building and noises from the flat below. My eczema and itching has reduced on the upper body and now is mainly on the lower legs as the detox continues strongly with some bile getting into the blood. Parasympathetic activity has improved with greater relaxation and an orthostatic problem has now resolved. My hair at the back of my neck has thickened up where it had shown signs of thinning.

Choline and betaine together are very helpful for resolving non alcoholic fatty liver disease. They are also very helpful for supplying methylation factors which may be needed with high vit A toxicity and when detoxing from it. You would get better methylation from reducing vit A but you still need extra methylation factors while you get there. Extra choline may be needed by those with celiac problems, gluten/glyphosate intolerance, post menopause, genetic issues, methylation issues and indeed by those with vit A toxicity. The latter being possibly because it causes dryness and causes hypoxia.

Choline helps cell membranes, hypoxia and endothelial cells. Betaine is osmoprotective and helps liver and kidney hydration. Choline is very important for cell membranes being regenerated in the liver throughout vit A reduction. Choline helping digestion in all likelihood helps nutrient absorption and limited studies have shown good results for magnesium and B12. Choline may also help remove copper which often helps in conjunction with vit A reduction. Synthetically it has been used in combination with molybdenum to remove copper. Choline is required to produce acetylcholine a neurotransmitter which helps with memory, mood and intelligence. We need acetylcholine to run the parasympathetic nervous system and it's important to be in this state for healing during a detox. Lack of choline may hamper healing for some.

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#3 · November 5, 2022, 4:08 am

Thank you for your excellent research on this @andrew-b. I’ve said that before but I’ll say it here too. I had become aware that choline was important after listening to Chris Shade and I’d introduced eggs back into my diet end of 2020/early 2021, but it wasn’t until you looked into it properly that I REALLY became aware exactly how important it is. I now see choline as a key element that went wrong for me. I wasn’t reaching the RDA. I believe I had choline deficiency. I tick all the acetylcholine deficiency symptoms. I believe my cell membranes were getting sicker and therefore I was not absorbing other nutrients well. My liver test results correlate with those of choline deficiency (high ALT, high triglycerides).

Doing vA detox eating high meat diet could save you from choline deficiency. Being a younger women with a well working PEMT enzyme (body makes choline stimulated by oestrogen) could save you. However, if you are a man, post menopausal women, younger women with PEMT SNPs and DON’T eat a high meat diet then I’d take Andrew’s research very seriously. Add some eggs or increase meat consumption or take a supplement (not choline bitartrate). Make sure you reach at least the RDA for choline. Don’t run yourself into a mess like I, and several of my lower meat eating long term detoxer friends, have. Be warned.

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#4 · November 5, 2022, 5:15 am

I even ate a high meat diet and had issues, I believe. I'm now thinking I have major methylation issues, perhaps the MTHFR gene, because I have always had extremely dry flaky alligator skin, and even on keto/low carb with tons of meat and eggs, my skin has never felt or looked like it does now, after supplementing with lecithin/phosphatidyl choline. Of course, I've also lowered retinols for 6 months now, but that alone did nothing for my skin or hair. I've been running my hands across my face and hands and knuckles marveling at this new softer skin I've literally never experienced in my life before. Supplementing with silica improved skin somewhat, but never like this.

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#5 · November 5, 2022, 7:22 am

VA toxicity depletes folate/B12. Garrett Smith made a video about this, even though he’s now become a B vitamin denier 🙄 Also aldehydes in general deplete folate. Therefore, I’m guessing we start to rely more on the choline/betaine alternative pathway to re methylate. If we can’t get enough for methylation we will steal choline from cell membranes apparently. This could explain a lot I think.

So great to hear about your skin improvements @jessica2. My fingernails are improving for the first time in around 4 years (can’t remember exactly when they deteriorated, it was after start of vA detox) instead of getting worse and worse. I’m seeing this as a major indication that increasing choline is what my body needed. I’ve tried every B supplement I could think of to improve my nails. Nothing worked. The internet says my issues are B vitamin deficiencies, but if cell membranes are ruined due to lack of choline, I don’t think a B supplement will cure it because it can’t get to where it needs to go efficiently. Idk but something to do with my nails has improved since adding in x2 eggs a day.

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#6 · November 5, 2022, 8:47 am

Egg yolks are the only food with retinol that I will always consider eating that's for sure.. Btw egg whites seems to cause a lot of problems for a lot of people so maybe eating just raw egg yolks is the best way to get the nutrition from the egg without things like avidin etc..?

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#7 · November 5, 2022, 8:58 am

The avidin can be neutralised by lightly cooking or frying. Some people have sulphur issues. Some like me resolve with vit A reduction. Serine is high in egg whites and that can convert to choline as well so I suggest eating the whole egg if possible.

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#8 · November 5, 2022, 9:34 am

@jaj B denier, lol. I guess he thinks just cutting out the A will resolve the B issues, but I am finding that is certainly not the case, like you, Andrew and other. I know someone who has followed Garrett and his advice for years, 10 at least, and has MTHFR diagnosed. He followed the diet to a T, stopped most other B supplements except occasional b12 and folate, took the recommended minerals, and still had such debilitating fatigue he could hardly get out of bed many days. He notices when he takes them regularly along with extra thiamine, choline, and carnitine (apparently this helps if you have methylation issues as well), he doesn't get this fatigue. None of those things Dr. Smith recommends.

Andrew and I were just musing about the super high amount of potassium some of the members take, and Andrew thinks it may be due to inability to absorb/utilize it due to cell membrane/choline issues. This makes a ton of sense. Same thing would apply to magnesium and why the topical form is preferred there. I absolutely HATE the topical magnesium and as long as I put a few flakes in my water now, I'm good on that. Potassium was giving me heart fluttering, so I axed that too. Minerals do not always unlock the key to detox issues, for sure. I'm just finding concentrating on the B's, most especially choline, is so much more helpful to me.

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#9 · November 5, 2022, 10:19 am

Yes needing loads of a certain supplement reeks of poor absorption to me. I don’t think the Garrett Smith programme has got things right, which is a great shame. I hung around as long as I could but the choline thing has been the final straw for me. When ego comes ahead of science we have a serious problem. I followed his advice for 2 years, with the many mistakes and changes. For the last 2 years I’ve been trying to work out what had gone wrong, after following his advice for the first two years. Choline is providing many answers for me. Also my work on the up regulation of the kynurenine pathway resulting in aldehyde toxicity. I’m building a picture that makes a lot of sense for my personal situation. Something has messed me up. Could be vA toxicity/detox or could be catching covid x3 times. Idk. Choline could well be a big part of the cure. We shall see.

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#10 · November 5, 2022, 10:35 am

Any nutrition plan that encourages less fructose and sugar, more protein, and some minerals, and most importantly a reduction of retinols is going to have a modicum of success for some people. I do not believe he has the magical detoxification answer to retinols though. The amount of people still suffering constipation, insomnia, needing sky high amounts of certain minerals, having foamy urine, still struggling with weight issues, etc, etc, is also proof that the GS diet and mineral program doesn't cure all. Don't even think about trying to fix hair or skin issues on his diet because you are flat out told this is the "last" thing to "heal" and will take years to see progress on. Some members have the idea that if its low A its ok! and eat lots of sugar, white flours, etc. I did the white flour and rice and believe it hindered progress because of the extra B's needed to process these. My back pain became an issue the more I tried to eat beans, rice and meat (sorry Grant) for detox purposes. And the avoiding of everything under the sun because of this or that potential threat to "detox" is very unhealthy, at least for me. I am finding meat (of all kinds, not just beef!), potatoes, eggs, cruciferous especially cabbage, celery, berries, apples and various dairy garnishes to be the best thing for me, and most of those things are "not allowed" on the GS (SHOULD BE THE BS) plan.

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Eggs as part of Vitamin A reduction

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