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Elizabeth's progress report
Hello everyone, thank you all for sharing your experiences. And thank you, Grant, for all the information you have so freely shared and for providing a space for conversation about it.
I found this site about 2 weeks ago, and removed whatever was left of Vitamin A and beta carotene from my diet. My diet was already very restrictive because of all the issues I've been dealing with. It has taken me a while to start my progress thread because I have had so many issues over the years and tried so many diets. I have overcome a lot of issues, but one thing that always remains is chronic fatigue and intermittent headaches.
Some things that have improved in the past 2 weeks are:
reduction in fatigue, increase in motivation, decrease in procrastination
vitiligo where I had shingles 5 years ago is fading
intermittent lessening of eye floaters and dry eye
two nights ago I started to have periods of very deep sleep
improvement in word recall
improvement in mood (intermittent, though)
My diet includes beef, white rice, pitas and pretzles (made with unbromated, unfortified flour, yeast, water and salt), ice tea, grapes, olive oil, arrowroot, and kombucha
I do take quite a few supplements, b vitamins, c, zinc, d, selenium, tyrosine, Butcher's Broom, brahmi
Still am having burning, tearing eyes, especially during the night. Does anyone know why that is common?
The first few months were rough- I had scary bumpy hot red skin rashes on and off the entire first year, face and abdomen. and horrible sties, eye inflammation. Toxic A causes burns on the way out.
Glad you found this site and knowledge, I would go through and all the posts you can. Supplements have been problematic some people. Welcome and hope you feel better, soon.
One thing you can look into is a high oxalate diet. I noticed you are drinking iced tea, kombucha, and using arrowroot, all of which are reportedly high in oxalates. Burning sensations in the eyes have been associated with both high oxalate diets and oxalate dumping, so removing high oxalate foods may initially improve the condition, but then return with a vengeance once your body begins dumping oxalates. Note, this is all under the assumption that oxalates are the issue; it could very much be something else, like some kind of histamine issue or just vitamin A detox symptoms.
Hi! Was your diet high in vitamin A/beta-carotene to begin with? Did you have any dry eyes/dry skin issues prior to the beginning of the diet?
One thing to make sure of on a low-A diet is getting enough fiber to bind the bile acids for excretion. Otherwise, you'll end up just reabsorbing most of the vit A you have in your system. You may try beans/lentils (not red ones, though).
Quote from saraleah11 on June 4, 2022, 5:34 pmThe first few months were rough- I had scary bumpy hot red skin rashes on and off the entire first year, face and abdomen. and horrible sties, eye inflammation. Toxic A causes burns on the way out.
Glad you found this site and knowledge, I would go through and all the posts you can. Supplements have been problematic some people. Welcome and hope you feel better, soon.
Thank you for the input. I have something that looks like keratosis pilaris but it's in a strange place, above the clavicle near the shoulder. I was a little shocked when I checked it yesterday and it looks worse! I'll try to not worry.
Thanks for the heads up about oxalates, I forgot about grains being a significant source. I only use about a tsp of arrowroot at a time, but now that you bring up oxalates, the pitas would be a significant source. I'm trying to alternate pitas with white rice, maybe that will help.
Yes, the posts are very helpful. Lots of questions already answered. Thank you for taking the time to respond and the well wishes.
Quote from Viktor on June 5, 2022, 8:32 amHi! Was your diet high in vitamin A/beta-carotene to begin with? Did you have any dry eyes/dry skin issues prior to the beginning of the diet?
One thing to make sure of on a low-A diet is getting enough fiber to bind the bile acids for excretion. Otherwise, you'll end up just reabsorbing most of the vit A you have in your system. You may try beans/lentils (not red ones, though).
Hi, Viktor,
Just previous to starting this diet I had been eating cheese, heavy cream, and tomatoes. I will try to figure out how high the Vitamin A and beta-carotene content was. It was definitely high enough to make my skin orange.
I have switched diets many times since I came down with ME/CFS multiple chemical sensitivities years ago. I was vegan for many years and ate a lot of squash. I juiced for a couple of years and used a lot of carrots. I tried a fruit diet and drank a lot of orange juice. Then I tried a diet based on raw milk and drank a lot of homemade kefir.
When I was vegan I had the worst skin problem...ezema and other stuff that I don't even know the name for. Cutting out vegetables when I switched to meat and dairy helped with that. But other problems started, and it's always been one thing or another. I should try to list all the health issues, but it just still seems overwhelming to even try to do that.
Yes, my eyes were bothering me and I had been having dry, itchy skin before the diet, and the symptoms have lessened somewhat. Just previous to cutting way back on the Vitamin A/beta-carotene, the amount in my diet wasn't as high as other times in the past, but my eye symptoms were worse. Maybe just a build up from over the years.
When I was vegan, after many years of eating beans I was unable to eat them at all, but I will figure out some other food to get fiber from.
Thanks for your help. I appreciate it.
Hi!
I think avoiding lutein and its sibling (isomer) zeaxanthin is probably the main carotenoids to avoid if you have any nerve problems. That is since lutein is the most fat-soluble of the common carotenoids and is known to be the carotenoid with the highest concentration in the brain, with the audiotory cortex being most heavily affected.
See this 2014 study of deceased infants for more on the accumulation of carotenoids in the brain, which I obviously think is a bad thing with me recommending to avoid lutein:
https://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Fulltext/2014/11000/Lutein_and_Preterm_Infants_With_Decreased.23.aspx
PS. Go slow with changes! It is a long process.
For example I found an example in a study on the keto-carotenoid cathaxanthin as a sun tanning supplement. After ceasing to take that stupid and dangerous carotenoid it to up to 21 years to get rid of yellow crystals that had formed in the retina. Here is a post about that study among other things:
Quote from David on June 6, 2022, 5:28 amHi!
I think avoiding lutein and its simbling (isomer) zeaxanthin is probably the main carotenoids to avoid if you have any nerve problems. That is since lutein is the most fat-soluble of the common carotenoids and is known to be the carotenoid with the highest concentration in the brain, with the audiotory cortex being most heavily affected.
See this 2014 study of deceased infants for more on the accumulation of carotenoids in the brain, which I obviously think is a bad thing with me recommending to avoid lutein:
https://journals.lww.com/jpgn/Fulltext/2014/11000/Lutein_and_Preterm_Infants_With_Decreased.23.aspx
PS. Go slow with changes! It is a long process.
For example I found an example in a study on the keto-carotenoid cathaxanthin as a sun tanning supplement. After ceasing to take that stupid and dangerous carotenoid it to up to 21 years to get rid of yellow crystals that had formed in the retina. Here is a post about that study among other things:
That's interesting about lutein, I just looked up a list of foods high in lutein, and oh no, I was eating a lot of grapes. I had been drinking orange juice but quit that about 2 weeks ago, and funny that I know that I can't eat a couple on the list of 8 that are at the top of the list. Does lutein make your skin turn orange the way beta-carotene does?
All the studies I am seeing say lutein is good for the eyes and brain. Are they jumping to a wrong conclusion?
I think looking things up at myfooddata.com is pretty good. I choose a "nutrient" and then I usually change to per 100 gram to more easily compare different foods, even if no one eats 100 gram of say a spice like paprika. Just note that a number is not absolute in any way and that for certain nutrients there is no or minimal data. Any averaged nutrient values I think should be taken with a grain of salt.
From looking at myfooddata.com, grapes (Thompson seedless and some other type) seem to be about 72 microgram of lutein per 100 gram. Putting them at around place 320 for the list of foods highest in lutein, not that extreme. But of course you should take consideration of the eaten weight, I think of it like this:
(Total intake) = (Concentration per gram) * (Weight)
Regarding lutein showing correlation benefits in studies for eyes and brain I think first that most studies are short term studies.
Then it is the question of detoxing vs. intoxing. When eating much lutein I think the body ramps up its storage capacity for lutein, which I think reduce symptoms. As I found in the 2011 study on cathaxanthin, over-dose could quickly lead to yellow crystals in the retina (which I think means exceding the storage capacity for that specific carotenoid). Also there are not that many people that try to reduce lutein intake so I don't think they use a control group which eat low lutein for a long time. There is mainly the autism diet called "Sara's diet" which focused on just reducing lutein (while at the same time recommending cod liver oil).
Detoxing and possibly starting to dislodge possible lutein crystals from the eye and brain tissue (that might be similar to the yellow cathaxanthin crystals in the retina I mention earlier) is probably quite harmful to all the surrounding tissue so being careful and slow when reducing lutein (or other carotenoids) I think is good idea. Give it time since it seems to be a long long process of years and years, probably just for that reason. Getting rid of possible yellow lutein crystals is hard work for the body since it needs to both break down/dislodge lutein, transport it away safely and then also repair the pre-existing and cleanup damage to the surrounding cells.
Grant Genereux has said he have had some fleeting temporary eyes problems 6-7 years eating his low vitamin A diet. The 2011 study on cathaxanthin said it took anywhere between 9-21 years (just two measuring points) to get rid of most of the cathaxanthin crystals in the retina, and cathaxanthin was quite uncommon in foods except salmon before 2000 but now it is in commonly fed to both poultry, hens and farmed fish (like salmon).
I have to keep moving this morning, but I would like to ask you a quick question. Do you see any studies showing that Vitamin A, they type from animal fat, gets lodged as crystals anywhere in the body. I do find that carotenes bother me more than the vitamin a in unfortified milk and butter doesn't seem to have the same consequences for me. But not sure what to think.
Thank you