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Gari / Bigpoppa
@ourania my sources are not as good as I would like as it’s a government report that references a text book that references a nutrition board report! However, government report says that 60% excreted as urine & 40% as bile.
‘Excretion
22. The excretion of vitamin A metabolites has been reported to be about 60% in urine and 40% in faeces (Gropper et al., 2005). The amount of excreted vitamin A compounds in bile increases if the level of vitamin A in liver exceeds a critical concentration, suggesting a protective mechanism (IOM, 2001). The oxidised products of vitamin A metabolism, conjugated to glucuronic acid or taurine, are excreted into the bile for further elimination in the faeces (Gropper et al., 2005). Faecal metabolites include retinoic acid glucuronide and 4-oxoretinoic acid glucuronide, which can be absorbed and returned to the liver through enterohepatic circulation. No information was found on excretion specifically in infants or children.’
The relevant section in Gropper:
‘Vitamin A is excreted in both the urine and feces with the relative amounts varying based on vitamin intake. Urinary excretion of vitamin A metabolites usually accounts for up to about 60% of vitamin A excretion, and fecal excretion accounts for the remaining 40%; however, with higher intakes, fecal excretion generally exceeds urinary excretion [3]. For urinary excretion, retinol and retinoic acid are typically oxidised at the beta-ionone ring and then conjugated to generate polar, water-soluble metabolites. Many of these metabolites, especially those that are short chain and acidic, are excreted by the kidneys. Small amounts of vitamin A, however, may be expired by the lungs as CO2. Oxidised products of vitamin A that contain intact chains and have been conjugated to glucuronic acid, such as retinoic acid glucuronide and 4-oxoretinoic acid glucoronide (Figure 10.10), or to taurine are generally secreted into the bile for ultimate fecal excretion.’
@ourania maybe. This paper says 10% of retinoids are expelled in the breath (end of introduction).
That is suuuper interesting @jaj, thank you! 😁 I shared it in another thread to correct my prior speculation that vitamin A is mainly fat soluble waste, and thus would be more likely to be excreted in the bile. 🙃
Yeah, @tim-2, good points, and it is worth mentioning that myself (and others trying this) started the bean protocol after already being on the detox for over a year. I agree there is no benefit to making yourself feel horrible. It is best to back off if you get bad symptoms, because slow and steady will work better in the long run anyway.
Quote from JAJ on June 8, 2020, 6:34 am@tim-2 I agree with lots you say. I’m not a fan of increasing symptoms as I think that symptoms equal damage & I’m keen to do the detox in a slow gentle way. However, many people are seeing improvements with soluble fibre. Also Karen Hurd has a large & long term body of work of improving symptoms with soluble fibre - I can’t ignore this. Also it makes sense that increasing the excretion of bile out of the body increases the excretion of vA. This is not the only way to get rid of vA as a substantial amount leaves in urine (I’ve recently been looking into this). I’ve taken the view that I’m adding soluble fibre in small amounts & not overdoing it. To start with I went ‘bean crazy’ & my anxiety & pulse tinnitus etc returned - for me these are sure signs that vA has gone up too high in the blood. So I’m going low & slow now.
Sunfiber is in fact used as a treatment for methane SIBO so I don’t think that it’s as simple as soluble fibre feeds SIBO. Methane SIBO is treated differently to hydrogen SIBO. I personally like Greg Nigh’s approach to SIBO as it seems logical (to do with body creating hydrogen sulphide to produce sulphate) but I think it’s a complex topic.
Dr Smith is a big fan of soluble fibre & sees it as totally necessary for the detox. He’s gone up to quite a high amount quite quickly but that’s his style & he likes to experiment on himself before suggesting others do things. I get the impression that he’s doing well on it.
Myself, Grant and others here have recommended legumes for a long time. As I wrote in that message fruit, vegetables and legumes have a role in a healthy diet including a low VA diet. I consume a can of beans every day. Soluble fibre does indeed sequester bile and is important. Beans also contain thiamine, folate, molybdenum and other important nutrients for health and for VA detox. Beans are the only food group that have been scientifically shown to reduce mortality and significantly improve health.
What I wrote was about going above and beyond with soluble fibre/bean intake, I'm not convinced it is helpful and as I explained I have multiple reasons for my doubts including how it relates to SIBO as well as pectin and formaldehyde production. Beans are also full of lectins which should not be ignored.
Thankfully with the help of a herbal program I have my SIBO under control, I no longer take the herbs and I no longer have symptoms of SIBO. Before the herbal program though if I consumed legumes or whole grains my SIBO would go wild. Beans are avoided/restricted on all the main SIBO diets for a good reason.
Most foods are problematic if we consume them in excess, think of fruit as an example. Fruit in moderate amounts is a healthy food but consume it in large amounts and the average person will soon be dealing with flatulence, loose stools and other symptoms. The fructose and the fibre in combination creates very unpleasant effects in excess.
A fiber product for SIBO? Probiotics are recommended for SIBO too, an incredibly bad idea... Science based ideas/good products are the exception not the rule on health food store shelves. It isn't just CLO that stands alone as a very bad idea...
Doctors and naturopaths are often sophists because they benefit from making treatments and diagnoses more complex than they need to be. SIBO herbs don't discriminate against hydrogen producing or methane producing species. I never bothered to get a formal diagnosis, there isn't any point.
Karen Herd has a large and long term body of work? So does Ray Peat, so does WAPF, so do vegetarians and vegans, so do low carbers etc etc. Yep science can be corrupt but it's a lot more trustworthy than diet advice on the net. The fads that people are into here are Karen Herd and her beans, Derrick Lonsdale and his thiamine, VA as a non essential toxin, Dr Gominak and her Vit D and Vit B program. None of them stand up to scrutiny. Yes beans, thiamin, Vit D and low VA are all important but that doesn't mean these people are recommending the best or even a helpful approach.
Garrett Smith? Smith's latest video on studies showing an epidemic of Hypervitaminosis A is excellent, I couldn't find any flaws. So he does produce the occasional gem. However he has a history of being wrong, making wild misinterpretations and constantly changing his advice. With regards to fiber he recommends increasing pectin intake while at the same time warning about methanol... Pectin is THE MAIN SOURCE of methanol in the diet.
In a previous post I elucidated the means in which riboflavin plays a key role in excretion of VA via bile and urine:
https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/riboflavins-role-in-an-important-va-detox-pathway/
I believe that I was the first to explain riboflavin's key role in this pathway and the pathway itself in one cohesive idea, I had to do a lot of digging for this, I couldn't find it explained anywhere online. So I realize the importance of riboflavin lol. However, this doesn't mean that I recommend riboflavin supplementation. A heroic approach will likely backfire in this situation as well, just as it will likely do so for soluble fibre supplementation or over consumption.
I would add that while I'm critical of other's work in order to get to the truth I have put my own neck on the line by producing some low budget Youtube videos. People have the ability to criticize me as well. So far most of the commentary has been from lilchick about my hairline (or lack of it) LOL
@puddleduck yep the tortoise beats the hare with low VA 🙂
@tim-2 ah I see you were talking about going too high with soluble fibre. That makes sense. Interestingly the Karen Hurd protocol I was following was one third of a cup of beans six times a day which from my estimates is one & a third of a tin - so quite similar to the amount you are eating. I know she has some protocols which are more than this. I agree that too much of something isn’t good. How much is enough? How much is too much? I have no idea 😀
Thanks for reposting your B2 thread as it was worth a second read. Great research. This was a good reminder for me. My 18 months of vitamin A detox (up to last hair test) definitely depleted selenium & molybdenum even though I was supplementing them so it probably did the same for B2 but that can’t be seen on a hair test! Being vA toxic depletes nutrients but the detox uses them up too (same ones/different ones?). During detox the whole vA metabolism pathway is being pushed hard.
No one has all the answers to human health. It’s a complex topic. The more I learn the less I realise I know. However, learning about vitamin A toxicity has been life changing for me. I only know about it through Dr Smith who directed me to Grant & for that I am extremely grateful. Without this knowledge I’d be eating my orange veg & taking my multivitamin getting fatter & sicker having no clue why.
Bile is released in the presence of fat, it doesn't have to be a lot. So beans as part of a meal with at least some fat seems ideal. Hurd's protocol is the opposite, spreading the beans out without fat. I also haven't seen evidence for her claim that fat interferes with bile being sequestered by soluble fiber. I often have my beans with some sauteed bacon, mushrooms and onion. I doubt that inhibits the bile effect much and it's a lot tastier. But yeah there are more questions than answers.
Thanks for the feedback on the B2 thread. Based on what I've read over the last year I think it is likely that a whole list of deficiencies are often partly caused by excess VA. Retinoic acid seems to be a broad spectrum enzyme inhibitor. It may be a causatory factor for some people suffering with micronutrient deficiency symptoms despite obtaining adequate amounts in the diet.
Yep I'm very thankful to Grant, Smith and also Matt Stone for publicizing the issue. Grant's work will positively affect the lives of millions in time.