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Gari / Bigpoppa
Lots of carotenoids cannot even be used for VA. All carotenoids including pro Vitamin A carotenoids and their breakdown products can be eliminated over time directly without being converted into VA. If carotenoids had to be converted to VA then non VA carotenoids like lutein would never be excreted from the body...
My focus has largely been on betacarotene so I haven’t looked at the others in such detail. I’m not aware of particular pathways for the breakdown & excretion of betacarotene (apart from directly sweating it out etc) so would be v interested in any references. It’s a topic I looked at in some detail in 2018/19 as I’m a genetically super poor converter of beta carotene to retinaldehyde due to BCO1 SNPs so was interested in how this affected my vA toxicity. I never completed writing up my research - maybe I should. In my family orange veg in excess are a health disaster.
Strangely I find mango unappealing so I'm safe! Once I'm VA depleted I'll be happy to have a bit of watermelon though.
The studies from Africa that mention mango consumption and Hypervitaminosis A aren't saying mango causes that. They are discussing how the VA supplementation was causing Hypervitaminosis A and that some of the population weren't even deprived of VA in their diet. I think it is best to regulate mango consumption but I really doubt it has much of a negative health effect in normal amounts.
The real threat is retinol intake because like heme iron its absorption is not regulated by the body. Provitamin A carotenoids and plant based iron does not represent the same danger. If someone has never eaten liver, CLO, fortified foods or VA supplements and never consumed much high fat dairy you can pretty much guarantee they won't have Hypervitaminosis A.
I'm not saying carrots etc are safe, carotenoids and carotenoid breakdown products (google them, they're pretty nasty) have their own issues, we don't fully understand just how problematic they are so it pays to be on the cautious side and it is important for people trying to deplete VA to avoid most carotenoids. Even once I'm VA depleted I will probably stick to a fairly low carotenoid diet.
So your serum retinol jumped from 54 to 72?
Just because you've used moderate amounts of butter doesn't mean you won't see benefits since you are probably eating less VA now than you were previously. If your serum retinol is still over 50 after almost 1.5 years then you aren't seeing much progress with depletion of VA and/or you had full blown Hypervitaminosis A to start with.
I've probably eaten about a dozen eggs in the last year and tiny amounts of dairy and small amounts of tomato sauce. My veges are iceberg lettuce, onion, garlic, white part of leek, cabbage, mushrooms and my fruit are grapes and the occasional banana, pineapple and orange. So I have very minimal beta carotene and retinol. My serum retinol at 12 months was just over 50 mcg/dL. So still high, lowering VA is often slow. However I've seen enormous benefits, normalized cholesterol, normalized liver enzymes, cure of seb derm and other benefits. This is why I'm such a prolific poster here and why I've done so much research on the issue, I'm pretty enthusiastic to say the least. So it is normal to see benefits before VA gets depleted. Over this time I've become quite in tune with the effects of VA on my body though and I still often get VA detox symptoms. So although I've benefited a lot, I know I'll benefit less if I include sources of retinol like butter since I'm still releasing too much retinol which is getting converted to toxic amounts of ATRA and 13-cis-retinoic acid. Even though I've followed such a low VA diet for so long, since I'm still releasing large amounts of retinol it's still like I'm eating high VA for my body. Once my liver retinol starts to get on the lower side then my body will get a break from high levels of retinoic acid for the first time in its life. Hurray!
Yes jumped to 72 and back to 52 in November , I haven't got myself tested since , has been 6 and a half months now . For me the biggest markers are how I am feeling , sleeping and energy levels . I am happy with my progress . I cannot ignore the definite positive changes I see and feel . One of the major change was the quick depletion of the edema I developed during the three years I took Vitamin A supplements ,( maybe a good sign , my body defense ) it is almost all gone now !!!!
Glad that you have made such good progress too , it feels great isn't it
Quote from JAJ on June 11, 2020, 4:39 amMy focus has largely been on betacarotene so I haven’t looked at the others in such detail. I’m not aware of particular pathways for the breakdown & excretion of betacarotene (apart from directly sweating it out etc) so would be v interested in any references. It’s a topic I looked at in some detail in 2018/19 as I’m a genetically super poor converter of beta carotene to retinaldehyde due to BCO1 SNPs so was interested in how this affected my vA toxicity. I never completed writing up my research - maybe I should. In my family orange veg in excess are a health disaster.
It seems that poor conversion due to genetics is linked to increased susceptibility to carotenoids. So that is further evidence that carotenoids create toxic effects themselves, not so much due to their conversion to retinol.
Again, since most carotenoids are not provitamin A carotenoids and because only a fraction of absorbed beta carotene is converted to retinol the major pathways for carotenoid excretion will not involve conversion to retinol. They involve direct excretion of carotenoids via bile and via degradation of carotenoids within the body.
Some discussion on carotenoid excretion:
While carotenoid excretion via the urine is probably very
low [17], the majority of carotenoids or their breakdown
products are most likely excreted in form of endogenous
losses within faeces. For the carotenoid fraction remaining in
the body, very little information is available on their further
metabolization, but degradation into smaller, more polar
fragments via the formation of epoxides and carotenals
seems likely [18].http://publicationslist.org/data/torsten-bohn/ref-1/Bohn_CurrNutrFdSci_2008.pdf
Salmon:
Liver metabolism and excretion
The liver is the main metabolic and excretory organ for carotenoids [27, 28] and is considered to have the major responsibility for the metabolic loss of astaxanthin [29]. The liver secretes bile into the intestine to aid in lipid digestion as well as in the excretion of metabolic breakdown products, and radioactive labelling studies with canthaxanthin [27] found bile radioactivity levels to be 8 times higher than the level in blood. The astaxanthin metabolites in the bile are secreted into the intestine and re-absorbed [28]. Radiolabeling experiments also indicate that either astaxanthin or its metabolites are excreted by the kidneys of salmon and rainbow trout [4, 27]. The liver is therefore either catabolizing astaxanthin to other pigments or to metabolites that no longer have a chromophore [29].The exact process of astaxanthin metabolism in the liver is unknown, as is the case with beta-carotene metabolism [11]. We do know, however, that the chylomicron-delivered astaxanthin that is not metabolized is repackaged into very low-density lipoproteins (VLDL) before being sent out into the blood once more [24].
https://bmcbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1741-7007-4-10
Do you think you were detoxing more than normal when you got the 72 result or did you feel the same at that time?
You supplemented VA for three years? Well I can see why you would benefit from a low VA diet.
Yeah it's awesome, it's the only dietary program that's ever helped me improve my health.
Quote from tim on June 11, 2020, 5:50 amDo you think you were detoxing more than normal when you got the 72 result or did you feel the same at that time?
You supplemented VA for three years? Well I can see why you would benefit from a low VA diet.
Yeah it's awesome, it's the only dietary program that's ever helped me improve my health.
Yes definitely ! Detox was strongest within the first four months of leaving the supplements
detox
improvement in sleep was immediate! Within a week , It was like I slept for four to five hours would get up around 2 o'clock in the morning completely fresh ! Very similar to what Grant describes in his first book , it was so strange !!!
mental clarity too hit me in a very good way , felt so positive and calm , this has carried on
edema started going down within a week ! I can say this as someone took family pics within that week I was shocked to see the after pics , I looked very different , the puffiness was way less , very obvious .
Bad ones
in December , had the worst throat pain ever , I can't even explain how painful it was ! Then conjunctivitis in one eye , that was so horrible as well, my eye completely closed .My husband had the worst flu and Achilles' tendon pain . It was so bad he could not go to work for three days . After he recovered I got the Achilles pain too !!!! All this started on sudden one day gone within a week
I dont get much detox now , my main issue is some hair fall ( had thick long hair ) though quality of hair has improved remarkably , I am now focusing on getting a lot of sunshine . My right side which has trauma reflex is getting so much better too , fingers crossed for more improvements !
I think that carotenoid problems and Hypervitaminosis A are quite separate issues. I see Accutane as the worst issue, then Hypervitaminosis A, then carotenoid issues. But some people may be sensitive to carotenoids, I think that Grant may possibly be in that category.
Once we deplete VA our liver will definitely be much happier and will be able to deal with everything including carotenoids more efficiently. Having some beans in the diet will help remove both carotenoids and VA laden bile.
My irises have become less brown and more green since going low VA. I'd say that is to do with minimizing carotenoid consumption.
Quote from tim on June 11, 2020, 5:50 amDo you think you were detoxing more than normal when you got the 72 result or did you feel the same at that time?
You supplemented VA for three years? Well I can see why you would benefit from a low VA diet.
Yeah it's awesome, it's the only dietary program that's ever helped me improve my health.
Do you think rice bran oil ( from India ) would be a better option for cooking ?
I just googled about it
Rice Bran. Rice bran contains magnesium, potassium, and phosphorus, along with B vitamins (thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, and pyridoxine) and vitamin E.