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Grant has NOT proven that vitamin A is non-essential
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:45 pm
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 20, 2024, 4:55 am
The animal studies showing the need of VA and carotenes for domestic stock like cows I think is pretty compelling. Can you imagine telling a farmer that the grass that the cows eat has a poison in them? I think they'd laugh at you.
I think little chicks idea of carotene's being protection against the sun is kind of interesting to think about too. Not to derail the threat on this point but maybe carotene's just aren't needed when you aren't in the Sun as much like we are these days shut up indoors?
I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level. You might scoff and say it's very unlikely but perhaps Grant is allergic to carotenes or some other Factor going on in his health such as amount stored in the liver. We just don't know. Grant says there's a growing body of people who are proving this. It's very informal though; there does need to be a study of some sort to control other factors. As far as I know there are no animal studies proving animals don't need it.
"I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level"
I find it perplexing that you struggle to grasp this straightforward correlation. Grant's experiment essentially extrapolates the broader experiment already being conducted by the all-muscle-meat carnivore community, who are consistently low in vitamin A. This isn't just some isolated test; it's an experiment with a significant number of positive results. The few failures that do exist are primarily among those consuming liver, as even Amber O'Hearn has pointed out. Grant's experiment is far from a simple n=1 scenario; it's an extension of the larger carnivore community experiment. His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases. In fact, Grant's experiment is superior because he included everything except vitamin A.
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 20, 2024, 4:55 am
The animal studies showing the need of VA and carotenes for domestic stock like cows I think is pretty compelling. Can you imagine telling a farmer that the grass that the cows eat has a poison in them? I think they'd laugh at you.
I think little chicks idea of carotene's being protection against the sun is kind of interesting to think about too. Not to derail the threat on this point but maybe carotene's just aren't needed when you aren't in the Sun as much like we are these days shut up indoors?
I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level. You might scoff and say it's very unlikely but perhaps Grant is allergic to carotenes or some other Factor going on in his health such as amount stored in the liver. We just don't know. Grant says there's a growing body of people who are proving this. It's very informal though; there does need to be a study of some sort to control other factors. As far as I know there are no animal studies proving animals don't need it.
"I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level"
I find it perplexing that you struggle to grasp this straightforward correlation. Grant's experiment essentially extrapolates the broader experiment already being conducted by the all-muscle-meat carnivore community, who are consistently low in vitamin A. This isn't just some isolated test; it's an experiment with a significant number of positive results. The few failures that do exist are primarily among those consuming liver, as even Amber O'Hearn has pointed out. Grant's experiment is far from a simple n=1 scenario; it's an extension of the larger carnivore community experiment. His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases. In fact, Grant's experiment is superior because he included everything except vitamin A.
Deleted user and Viktor2 have reacted to this post.
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:49 pm
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Tommy on August 20, 2024, 9:19 pm
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:49 pm
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Did you even read what I wrote? Why are you going into pedantics?
I was hoping for an individual that is anti VA to come in and actually bring forward arguments against my points as I’m actually neutral on this and have no intention of trying to prove Grant wrong, merely to spark discussion and delve into the science more.
It’s been disappointing thus far I must say.
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:49 pm
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Did you even read what I wrote? Why are you going into pedantics?
I was hoping for an individual that is anti VA to come in and actually bring forward arguments against my points as I’m actually neutral on this and have no intention of trying to prove Grant wrong, merely to spark discussion and delve into the science more.
It’s been disappointing thus far I must say.
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Alex on August 21, 2024, 4:12 am
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:49 pm
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Thriving?? Please check the pic attached below left pic is from a vid of his 7 years ago, right pic is from his most recent youtube interview. Also he says he almost never sweats eg hypothyroid.
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:49 pm
Quote from
Tommy on August 19, 2024, 2:14 am
What Grant has done is incredible.
He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources.
He has also potentially identified an issue in chronic toxicity. Although personally to me the ideas around this still seem unclear.
However…
He has not proven that it is entirely non-essential.
Factors to consider
1. He is well nourished
2. He gets preformed (animal, final form) vitamin a in his diet every day through the consumption of beef and bison muscle meat which has a small amount of retinol.
3. He still has vitamin a in his serum and that will likely never change as long as he consumes meat.
"He has proven that vitamin A is not required for survival anywhere near the amount suggested by mainstream sources."
Survival ?? He is thriving my friend ! I dont know why people are so desperate to prove grant wrong
Thriving?? Please check the pic attached below left pic is from a vid of his 7 years ago, right pic is from his most recent youtube interview. Also he says he almost never sweats eg hypothyroid.
Uploaded files:r, Deleted user and Andrew B have reacted to this post.
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:45 pm
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 20, 2024, 4:55 am
The animal studies showing the need of VA and carotenes for domestic stock like cows I think is pretty compelling. Can you imagine telling a farmer that the grass that the cows eat has a poison in them? I think they'd laugh at you.
I think little chicks idea of carotene's being protection against the sun is kind of interesting to think about too. Not to derail the threat on this point but maybe carotene's just aren't needed when you aren't in the Sun as much like we are these days shut up indoors?
I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level. You might scoff and say it's very unlikely but perhaps Grant is allergic to carotenes or some other Factor going on in his health such as amount stored in the liver. We just don't know. Grant says there's a growing body of people who are proving this. It's very informal though; there does need to be a study of some sort to control other factors. As far as I know there are no animal studies proving animals don't need it.
"I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level"
I find it perplexing that you struggle to grasp this straightforward correlation. Grant's experiment essentially extrapolates the broader experiment already being conducted by the all-muscle-meat carnivore community, who are consistently low in vitamin A. This isn't just some isolated test; it's an experiment with a significant number of positive results. The few failures that do exist are primarily among those consuming liver, as even Amber O'Hearn has pointed out. Grant's experiment is far from a simple n=1 scenario; it's an extension of the larger carnivore community experiment. His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases. In fact, Grant's experiment is superior because he included everything except vitamin A.
"His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases."
I think this is important no matter where you stand on vitamin A, I do think Grant has proven that it isn't starch or oxalates or bean toxins that cause disease as he was consuming a fair amount. I mean no where near the amount that those who eat spinach everyday get, but still we hear from the carnivore folk that oxalate is like the worst thing to happen to you.
Quote from
r on August 20, 2024, 12:45 pm
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 20, 2024, 4:55 am
The animal studies showing the need of VA and carotenes for domestic stock like cows I think is pretty compelling. Can you imagine telling a farmer that the grass that the cows eat has a poison in them? I think they'd laugh at you.
I think little chicks idea of carotene's being protection against the sun is kind of interesting to think about too. Not to derail the threat on this point but maybe carotene's just aren't needed when you aren't in the Sun as much like we are these days shut up indoors?
I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level. You might scoff and say it's very unlikely but perhaps Grant is allergic to carotenes or some other Factor going on in his health such as amount stored in the liver. We just don't know. Grant says there's a growing body of people who are proving this. It's very informal though; there does need to be a study of some sort to control other factors. As far as I know there are no animal studies proving animals don't need it.
"I also think that we should be wondering whether Grant's experiment is reproducible or not. He is an N=1 but that doesn't prove VA is unnecessary or unneeded; the study needs to be reproducible on a large level"
I find it perplexing that you struggle to grasp this straightforward correlation. Grant's experiment essentially extrapolates the broader experiment already being conducted by the all-muscle-meat carnivore community, who are consistently low in vitamin A. This isn't just some isolated test; it's an experiment with a significant number of positive results. The few failures that do exist are primarily among those consuming liver, as even Amber O'Hearn has pointed out. Grant's experiment is far from a simple n=1 scenario; it's an extension of the larger carnivore community experiment. His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases. In fact, Grant's experiment is superior because he included everything except vitamin A.
"His findings further debunk the carnivore community's belief that carbs, oxalates, or plant toxins are the primary culprits behind most diseases."
I think this is important no matter where you stand on vitamin A, I do think Grant has proven that it isn't starch or oxalates or bean toxins that cause disease as he was consuming a fair amount. I mean no where near the amount that those who eat spinach everyday get, but still we hear from the carnivore folk that oxalate is like the worst thing to happen to you.
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 7:47 am
@@janelle525 I very much disagree that Grant has proven oxalates don't matter. Or that they aren't the cause of problems. A couple of tablespoons of beans a day is not very many oxalates at all. It would probably be considered a low oxalate diet. He's not even eating a half a cup of black beans a day which would be about 30 grams of oxalates, high intake is considered 40 to 50 mg a day.
Can't forget he was eating brown rice every few days. That pushes up the oxalates quite a bit. But yeah like I said no where near spinach.
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 7:47 am
@@janelle525 I very much disagree that Grant has proven oxalates don't matter. Or that they aren't the cause of problems. A couple of tablespoons of beans a day is not very many oxalates at all. It would probably be considered a low oxalate diet. He's not even eating a half a cup of black beans a day which would be about 30 grams of oxalates, high intake is considered 40 to 50 mg a day.
Can't forget he was eating brown rice every few days. That pushes up the oxalates quite a bit. But yeah like I said no where near spinach.
r and Deleted user have reacted to this post.
Quote from
r on August 21, 2024, 8:02 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 7:47 am
@@janelle525 I very much disagree that Grant has proven oxalates don't matter. Or that they aren't the cause of problems. A couple of tablespoons of beans a day is not very many oxalates at all. It would probably be considered a low oxalate diet. He's not even eating a half a cup of black beans a day which would be about 30 grams of oxalates, high intake is considered 40 to 50 mg a day.
I very much disagree with your statement , brown rice has lots of oxalates . That add up to the whole list . Also even 7 years of oxalate consumption would add up a lot of oxalates in the body to dump .
Also not to forget , both are high in lectins , Arsenic and Phytic Acid.
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 7:47 am
@@janelle525 I very much disagree that Grant has proven oxalates don't matter. Or that they aren't the cause of problems. A couple of tablespoons of beans a day is not very many oxalates at all. It would probably be considered a low oxalate diet. He's not even eating a half a cup of black beans a day which would be about 30 grams of oxalates, high intake is considered 40 to 50 mg a day.
I very much disagree with your statement , brown rice has lots of oxalates . That add up to the whole list . Also even 7 years of oxalate consumption would add up a lot of oxalates in the body to dump .
Also not to forget , both are high in lectins , Arsenic and Phytic Acid.
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
I wasn't saying oxalates aren't a problem for people, I think spinach and rubarb and other veggies should be illegal lol. I ate a lot of spinach during the second half of my pregnancy with my first and he has asperger's. I think it is a cause of the autism epidemic. But... our own body produces oxalates so if we aren't clearing them then we wonder why? Grant ate plenty of dairy to bind oxalates in the intestines so that couldn't have been the cause of his kidney failure.
I wasn't saying oxalates aren't a problem for people, I think spinach and rubarb and other veggies should be illegal lol. I ate a lot of spinach during the second half of my pregnancy with my first and he has asperger's. I think it is a cause of the autism epidemic. But... our own body produces oxalates so if we aren't clearing them then we wonder why? Grant ate plenty of dairy to bind oxalates in the intestines so that couldn't have been the cause of his kidney failure.
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
Quote from
r on August 21, 2024, 9:12 am
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 8:20 am
You said Grants diet proves oxalates don't cause disease which sounded like a blanket statement to me. Maybe not his, as you just modified, but his diet certainly doesn't prove that oxalates don't cause disease.
So how does one prove oxalates don't cause diseases ? Also what do you think grant needs to proves further that would make you believe Vitamin A is not needed
Quote from
Jessica2 on August 21, 2024, 8:20 am
You said Grants diet proves oxalates don't cause disease which sounded like a blanket statement to me. Maybe not his, as you just modified, but his diet certainly doesn't prove that oxalates don't cause disease.
So how does one prove oxalates don't cause diseases ? Also what do you think grant needs to proves further that would make you believe Vitamin A is not needed
Deleted user has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Griffin on August 21, 2024, 12:59 pm
Grants diet actually was fairly low in oxalate, assuming he was not eating copious amounts of beans. I believe he stated that he ate 1/2 to 1 cup of beans per day. Even using a black beans which are higher oxalate to other beans, he would still be under 200mg per day. This actually could have benefited him as going to zero oxalate can often cause serious dumping issues for some people. I still firmly believe excess vitamin A is a major contributor to chronic disease, but that does not give other plant toxins a free pass. There are a lot of similarities between oxalate and vitamin A. The body has a finite capacity to handle said toxin, but when over consumed it starts to build up in the body. This will then trigger localized immune responses and lead to various autoimmune conditions. I do think people would be wise to moderate their oxalate intake while adopting the low vitamin A diet. Not all beans are high in oxalate, such as butter/lima beans, azuki beans and black eyed peas. The black eyed peas may contain too much beta carotene, but data seems to be hit or miss on that one. Even if you're consuming higher oxalate beans as long as you are not eating multiple cups per day you will still be in a moderate zone to prevent accumulation.
Grants diet actually was fairly low in oxalate, assuming he was not eating copious amounts of beans. I believe he stated that he ate 1/2 to 1 cup of beans per day. Even using a black beans which are higher oxalate to other beans, he would still be under 200mg per day. This actually could have benefited him as going to zero oxalate can often cause serious dumping issues for some people. I still firmly believe excess vitamin A is a major contributor to chronic disease, but that does not give other plant toxins a free pass. There are a lot of similarities between oxalate and vitamin A. The body has a finite capacity to handle said toxin, but when over consumed it starts to build up in the body. This will then trigger localized immune responses and lead to various autoimmune conditions. I do think people would be wise to moderate their oxalate intake while adopting the low vitamin A diet. Not all beans are high in oxalate, such as butter/lima beans, azuki beans and black eyed peas. The black eyed peas may contain too much beta carotene, but data seems to be hit or miss on that one. Even if you're consuming higher oxalate beans as long as you are not eating multiple cups per day you will still be in a moderate zone to prevent accumulation.
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