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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itHair loss

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Hair loss

#11 · October 6, 2025, 12:21 pm

Reminds me of Grant's notes (forgot which book) on the retinoic acid coming out through the skin as eczema. It burns out the tissue on its way out. Hair follicles and pores are the first to go.

#12 · October 6, 2025, 5:13 pm

Quote from Joseph on October 6, 2025, 5:13 pm

Quote from Joe2 on October 6, 2025, 12:21 pm

Reminds me of Grant's notes (forgot which book) on the retinoic acid coming out through the skin as eczema. It burns out the tissue on its way out. Hair follicles and pores are the first to go.

Yup. It's easy to find reports of itching (and inflammation, and eczema) associated with male pattern baldness. These comments are telling:

Gonna win wrote,

My question is, Does male pattern baldness have any association with an itching scalp? because my hairline is always itching and so is the top back of my head.

Yes. One of the signs of forepending (sic) hairloss is the immune system attacking the hair follicles as a foreign object in the body. I use to notice itching and a weird pins and needles effect along my hairline and crown. Inflammation leads to itching which again leads to inflammation

Around a year ago I started noticing my hair line recede, but any time it did there would be pimples at my hairline.

Now, it's very advanced but I notice small scale type prices of skin fall off when I comb it, maybe once a week I may get one that's half the size of a finger nail. My entire top of the head seems to be thinning, but what had me convinced its a dermatology issue is that it is so itchy. Also, whenever hair falls out, it usually has little bits of skin attached (see attachment). This is the same material the bigger scales seem to be made of too whenever I see one. Itchyness seems worse at evenings.

I have come to believe that inflammation plays a more drastic role in Male Pattern Baldness than it gets credit for. At least in my case I get a very itchy scalp in the thinning areas, most notably the crown and the temples. Recently though it has spread to the middle and sides. This itching most likely accelerates hair loss dramatically. I'm 19 and I'm thin all over including the sides. I also have a receding hairline.

Any G.P or Doctor that I've gone to does not understand/know the relationship between male pattern baldness and inflammation. They either mis-diagnose it or claim that it's all psychological.

There's a wealth of data linking "male androgenetic alopecia" with all of the usual suspects which Grant's books elucidate at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK278957/

There's also a modern study which uses almost the exact same "deplete diet" from Wolbach and Howe, 1925 (they substituted lard with soybean oil) which shows:

Feeding high levels of dietary vitamin A combined with increased RA synthesis accelerated the onset of AA (androgenetic alopecia). Yet feeding no vitamin A resulted in more severe disease by the end of the study. This duality of responses suggests precise vitamin A levels are needed. [...] This report shows increased retinoic acid synthesis in AA.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3546144/

As usual, the beatings will continue until morale improves:

Maybe you’ve seen the recent TikTok trend spreading the gospel that a combination of minoxidil (the active ingredient in hair loss medications like Rogaine) and topical vitamin A — specifically prescription tretinoin — can help prevent hair loss at the hairline.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2023/04/11349959/tretinoin-retinol-for-hair-growth-differences

We propose that certain retinoids increase the rate of hair growth, prolong the anagen phase of the hair cycle, play a role in converting vellus to terminal hairs, and act synergistically with minoxidil to produce more dense hair regrowth from regressing follicles than either compound alone.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3063367/

Quote from Joe2 on October 6, 2025, 12:21 pm

Reminds me of Grant's notes (forgot which book) on the retinoic acid coming out through the skin as eczema. It burns out the tissue on its way out. Hair follicles and pores are the first to go.

Yup. It's easy to find reports of itching (and inflammation, and eczema) associated with male pattern baldness. These comments are telling:

Gonna win wrote,

My question is, Does male pattern baldness have any association with an itching scalp? because my hairline is always itching and so is the top back of my head.

Yes. One of the signs of forepending (sic) hairloss is the immune system attacking the hair follicles as a foreign object in the body. I use to notice itching and a weird pins and needles effect along my hairline and crown. Inflammation leads to itching which again leads to inflammation

Around a year ago I started noticing my hair line recede, but any time it did there would be pimples at my hairline.

Now, it's very advanced but I notice small scale type prices of skin fall off when I comb it, maybe once a week I may get one that's half the size of a finger nail. My entire top of the head seems to be thinning, but what had me convinced its a dermatology issue is that it is so itchy. Also, whenever hair falls out, it usually has little bits of skin attached (see attachment). This is the same material the bigger scales seem to be made of too whenever I see one. Itchyness seems worse at evenings.

I have come to believe that inflammation plays a more drastic role in Male Pattern Baldness than it gets credit for. At least in my case I get a very itchy scalp in the thinning areas, most notably the crown and the temples. Recently though it has spread to the middle and sides. This itching most likely accelerates hair loss dramatically. I'm 19 and I'm thin all over including the sides. I also have a receding hairline.

Any G.P or Doctor that I've gone to does not understand/know the relationship between male pattern baldness and inflammation. They either mis-diagnose it or claim that it's all psychological.

There's a wealth of data linking "male androgenetic alopecia" with all of the usual suspects which Grant's books elucidate at: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK278957/

There's also a modern study which uses almost the exact same "deplete diet" from Wolbach and Howe, 1925 (they substituted lard with soybean oil) which shows:

Feeding high levels of dietary vitamin A combined with increased RA synthesis accelerated the onset of AA (androgenetic alopecia). Yet feeding no vitamin A resulted in more severe disease by the end of the study. This duality of responses suggests precise vitamin A levels are needed. [...] This report shows increased retinoic acid synthesis in AA.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3546144/

As usual, the beatings will continue until morale improves:

Maybe you’ve seen the recent TikTok trend spreading the gospel that a combination of minoxidil (the active ingredient in hair loss medications like Rogaine) and topical vitamin A — specifically prescription tretinoin — can help prevent hair loss at the hairline.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2023/04/11349959/tretinoin-retinol-for-hair-growth-differences

We propose that certain retinoids increase the rate of hair growth, prolong the anagen phase of the hair cycle, play a role in converting vellus to terminal hairs, and act synergistically with minoxidil to produce more dense hair regrowth from regressing follicles than either compound alone.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3063367/

Joe2 has reacted to this post.

#13 · October 7, 2025, 1:28 am

@joseph-6

Wow, just got emails to threads I subscribed to. Saw emailed comments to drama thread that got deleted before I saw the thread.

"pre-eminent guru?"

Gonna have to work on my hill-billy yoga instructor name now. Got to work on my Hindi name for the guy with suspenders and flannel shirt in corner doing the handstand.

I did not get to see the reply until now. I thought I asked a straight question. Ah well.

lil chick and Joseph have reacted to this post.

#14 · October 7, 2025, 5:44 am

Quote from lil chick on October 7, 2025, 5:44 am
Awe it's too bad and maybe she will return at some point. I don't think you meant any damage, Joe. The moderator has a comment on the rules topic that maybe pertains to what went wrong. Also, I think she got sick of people suggesting fiber. However, I don't think people should give up on suggesting things to resistant people if they think that the person needs to get past a resistance that is a blockage. I'm glad people kept on me about fiber. I wish her well. One of the things she talked about was pectin, and that is soluble fiber of a type. It could be that she is actually Karen Hurding... in her own way... (without beans?).

Back to hair loss, I've got two or three interesting cases in my life.

A family nearby was doing a version of WAPF and when their daughter reached menarche she had both migraines and hairloss at the same time. So obviously I'm linking vA overload to both conditions, but think about it: they both have to do with the head. Could hairloss be somewhat about the brain swelling that accompanies vA overload? The body pushes bad things to the outside. I also had my first migraine about menarche, so to me, it seems hormones add to the bad mix. Is this because hormones are also in the queue trying to get detoxed by the bile and making it toxic?

My husband, on the other hand, is a very good example of a person who I think has vA overload... and yet the top of his head is still as furry as ever. I do think he has lost leg hair, though. He has always used Head and Shoulders (dandruff shampoo) and loves hot showers, so I'm not sure if the idea that hot-shampoos-are-bad is true. In fact, maybe in a way they are good because of my pet theory that soap and detergent are like external bile that we can apply to at least get rid of surface vA's etc. Although it may encourage more oil with more vA to come to the surface, but maybe in a way that is good (although maddening, painful or even damaging perhaps. Better out than in, as Shrek says).

I have some thinness in the front (fading widows peak sort of thing) and my parents do to. It appears the patterns of where vA burns-out follicles...are inherited.

In my late forties I spent a year or two using Henna and Indigo on my hair to make it auburn instead of gray and regret sitting around with all those plant pigments on my scalp for *hours and hours*. I sometimes wonder if the itchiness and occasional scalp tenderness and pimples are me finally getting rid of that. And did it play into my rosacea, tinnitus, vertigo, headaches? (all about the head).

Awe it's too bad and maybe she will return at some point. I don't think you meant any damage, Joe. The moderator has a comment on the rules topic that maybe pertains to what went wrong. Also, I think she got sick of people suggesting fiber. However, I don't think people should give up on suggesting things to resistant people if they think that the person needs to get past a resistance that is a blockage. I'm glad people kept on me about fiber. I wish her well. One of the things she talked about was pectin, and that is soluble fiber of a type. It could be that she is actually Karen Hurding... in her own way... (without beans?).

Back to hair loss, I've got two or three interesting cases in my life.

A family nearby was doing a version of WAPF and when their daughter reached menarche she had both migraines and hairloss at the same time. So obviously I'm linking vA overload to both conditions, but think about it: they both have to do with the head. Could hairloss be somewhat about the brain swelling that accompanies vA overload? The body pushes bad things to the outside. I also had my first migraine about menarche, so to me, it seems hormones add to the bad mix. Is this because hormones are also in the queue trying to get detoxed by the bile and making it toxic?

My husband, on the other hand, is a very good example of a person who I think has vA overload... and yet the top of his head is still as furry as ever. I do think he has lost leg hair, though. He has always used Head and Shoulders (dandruff shampoo) and loves hot showers, so I'm not sure if the idea that hot-shampoos-are-bad is true. In fact, maybe in a way they are good because of my pet theory that soap and detergent are like external bile that we can apply to at least get rid of surface vA's etc. Although it may encourage more oil with more vA to come to the surface, but maybe in a way that is good (although maddening, painful or even damaging perhaps. Better out than in, as Shrek says).

I have some thinness in the front (fading widows peak sort of thing) and my parents do to. It appears the patterns of where vA burns-out follicles...are inherited.

In my late forties I spent a year or two using Henna and Indigo on my hair to make it auburn instead of gray and regret sitting around with all those plant pigments on my scalp for *hours and hours*. I sometimes wonder if the itchiness and occasional scalp tenderness and pimples are me finally getting rid of that. And did it play into my rosacea, tinnitus, vertigo, headaches? (all about the head).

Janelle525, Joe2 and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#15 · October 7, 2025, 1:39 pm

Quote from Joe2 on October 7, 2025, 1:39 pm

Quote from lil chick on October 7, 2025, 5:44 am

Awe it's too bad and maybe she will return at some point. I don't think you meant any damage, Joe. The moderator has a comment on the rules topic that maybe pertains to what went wrong. Also, I think she got sick of people suggesting fiber. However, I don't think people should give up on suggesting things to resistant people if they think that the person needs to get past a resistance that is a blockage. I'm glad people kept on me about fiber. I wish her well. One of the things she talked about was pectin, and that is soluble fiber of a type. It could be that she is actually Karen Hurding... in her own way... (without beans?).

Back to hair loss, I've got two or three interesting cases in my life.

A family nearby was doing a version of WAPF and when their daughter reached menarche she had both migraines and hairloss at the same time. So obviously I'm linking vA overload to both conditions, but think about it: they both have to do with the head. Could hairloss be somewhat about the brain swelling that accompanies vA overload? The body pushes bad things to the outside. I also had my first migraine about menarche, so to me, it seems hormones add to the bad mix. Is this because hormones are also in the queue trying to get detoxed by the bile and making it toxic?

My husband, on the other hand, is a very good example of a person who I think has vA overload... and yet the top of his head is still as furry as ever. I do think he has lost leg hair, though. He has always used Head and Shoulders (dandruff shampoo) and loves hot showers, so I'm not sure if the idea that hot-shampoos-are-bad is true. In fact, maybe in a way they are good because of my pet theory that soap and detergent are like external bile that we can apply to at least get rid of surface vA's etc. Although it may encourage more oil with more vA to come to the surface, but maybe in a way that is good (although maddening, painful or even damaging perhaps. Better out than in, as Shrek says).

I have some thinness in the front (fading widows peak sort of thing) and my parents do to. It appears the patterns of where vA burns-out follicles...are inherited.

In my late forties I spent a year or two using Henna and Indigo on my hair to make it auburn instead of gray and regret sitting around with all those plant pigments on my scalp for *hours and hours*. I sometimes wonder if the itchiness and occasional scalp tenderness and pimples are me finally getting rid of that. And did it play into my rosacea, tinnitus, vertigo, headaches? (all about the head).

Sometime, if you are able, I will be delighted and honored to converse in private. Is there some other social media with direct messaging that you use?

Quote from lil chick on October 7, 2025, 5:44 am

Awe it's too bad and maybe she will return at some point. I don't think you meant any damage, Joe. The moderator has a comment on the rules topic that maybe pertains to what went wrong. Also, I think she got sick of people suggesting fiber. However, I don't think people should give up on suggesting things to resistant people if they think that the person needs to get past a resistance that is a blockage. I'm glad people kept on me about fiber. I wish her well. One of the things she talked about was pectin, and that is soluble fiber of a type. It could be that she is actually Karen Hurding... in her own way... (without beans?).

Back to hair loss, I've got two or three interesting cases in my life.

A family nearby was doing a version of WAPF and when their daughter reached menarche she had both migraines and hairloss at the same time. So obviously I'm linking vA overload to both conditions, but think about it: they both have to do with the head. Could hairloss be somewhat about the brain swelling that accompanies vA overload? The body pushes bad things to the outside. I also had my first migraine about menarche, so to me, it seems hormones add to the bad mix. Is this because hormones are also in the queue trying to get detoxed by the bile and making it toxic?

My husband, on the other hand, is a very good example of a person who I think has vA overload... and yet the top of his head is still as furry as ever. I do think he has lost leg hair, though. He has always used Head and Shoulders (dandruff shampoo) and loves hot showers, so I'm not sure if the idea that hot-shampoos-are-bad is true. In fact, maybe in a way they are good because of my pet theory that soap and detergent are like external bile that we can apply to at least get rid of surface vA's etc. Although it may encourage more oil with more vA to come to the surface, but maybe in a way that is good (although maddening, painful or even damaging perhaps. Better out than in, as Shrek says).

I have some thinness in the front (fading widows peak sort of thing) and my parents do to. It appears the patterns of where vA burns-out follicles...are inherited.

In my late forties I spent a year or two using Henna and Indigo on my hair to make it auburn instead of gray and regret sitting around with all those plant pigments on my scalp for *hours and hours*. I sometimes wonder if the itchiness and occasional scalp tenderness and pimples are me finally getting rid of that. And did it play into my rosacea, tinnitus, vertigo, headaches? (all about the head).

Sometime, if you are able, I will be delighted and honored to converse in private. Is there some other social media with direct messaging that you use?

#16 · October 7, 2025, 5:14 pm

There have been other times that it would have been nice to be able to take convo's offline, but I've never found a way.

Direct messaging would be a nice upgrade to this forum software.

Joe2 has reacted to this post.

#17 · October 7, 2025, 11:38 pm

@lil-chick

For now it feels best I leave.

If you find a way, please contact me. I am fine with Grant and or Moderator giving you my email. Otherwise, x, gab or gettr work.

Another site has direct messaging but you would have to join it.

https://the-calcium-connection.mn.co/share/VQMsIfcaY9nOfB0Z?utm_source=manual

See you when I do. Thank you.

#18 · October 8, 2025, 3:39 am

Joe and lilchik (and many others) - I have really appreciated the information and support you have provided on this forum. I am happy to continue conversations. Even when we disagree with each other, we should be able to have open conversations. We are allowed to have different viewpoints and bodies, like flowers in a field.

lil chick, Livy and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#19 · October 8, 2025, 4:24 am

Quote from Joe2 on October 7, 2025, 11:38 pm

@lil-chick

For now it feels best I leave.

I consider this a great loss to the forum. You've got much more experience than many here, both with low a and life generally. Nothing wrong with taking time off but saying that I hope you come back one sunshiny day! I didn't call you preeminent and foremost for nothing, Jack!

lil chick, Livy and Joe2 have reacted to this post.

#20 · October 8, 2025, 6:05 am

*Note: the moderator did not delete Itsme's thread*. The moderator was in the shop for repairs at that time.

@joe2 if you want to comment on the rules post, please feel free. Any convo will probably be deleted afterward to keep the rule's thread simple. This thread is about hair loss, and it would be best not to bog it down too much more.

The moderator, being a robot, is having a challenging time trying to parse through the drama here, since robots have no feelings. The moderator was in the shop when all this happened, although the moderator did notice that things were in flux.

All posters here are important to the moderator, and to lose yet another one is against the moderator's prime directive.

Conversing on the interwebs is fraught with problems... and humans have to go to an even higher level of polite behavior in order not to offend. This story plays out in forum after forum, infinitum.

Bleep Bloop.

Joe2 and Joseph have reacted to this post.

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