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Has anyone gotten much fatter from low vita? (I have)
Ok, quick summary. Ive been low vita for about 7 months now. I went from probably something insane like 300-500+% RDA vitA for at least 8 years to zero vitA for 1.5 months, and then to around 25-33% RDA for the last 5.5. My diet is pretty normal. Wheat, rice, chicken, beef, very low spices, bit of butter, grape juice, sweet foods, not much else. I have NO calorie or macro restrictions and I havent for 4 years since Matt Stone and I never will again. Macros and food group intake is similar to before vitA. The only other thing Im doing other than low vitA is olive oil liver flushes every 3 weeks in an experiment to fast track retinol detox.
In those 7 months, the gains have been extraordinary. I was totally buggered before starting. Super low energy, hands and feet very swollen, super irritable, muscle weakness to the point where they felt very sore climbing ONE flight of stairs, felt like lactic acid buildup, very low sex drive (for me anyway) and literally dozens of other bizzare symptoms which shouldnt happen when listening to ones body and eating a decent normal diet. At the time of starting the diet I was 182 pounds. Appetite seemed suppressed at around 2500 calories a day and I didnt know why. For the first few months I progressively got hungrier and my appetite went from 2500 cals to around 4000 cals. The liver flushes too (which I really think are vitA related) really sped things up, to the point where I was no longer concerned with trying to stay at zero RDA and just aimed to keep it low without making me hate food. BUT I started gaining a lot of weight. From 182, to 220 pounds today. Just to emphasize the weirdness of this, Ive never weighed so much. My setpoint has always been around 180 my whole life. The only time Ive weighed much more was when I was doing tons of weight lifting in university over a decade ago and I got to 210, but those extra 30 pounds were mostly muscle. Now the extra 38 pounds is mostly (well proportioned) fat. Most isnt on my stomach, and I dont even look super fat or anything, but bigger, well marbled i guess? Also weird, I went from always testing normal thyroid to testing repeatedly as subclinical hyperthyroid. But without any of the normal symptoms of hyperthyroid (in truth, I had a bunch of hyperthyroid symptoms BEFORE going vitA free, and they all got way better on the diet). Im on no medications and no supplements.
Am I concerned? Not really. Its definitely not a vitA deficiency symptom. Ive gotten several lifetimes of vitA in the last 8 years. The weight gain and hyperthyroid AND the dozens of symptoms that massively decreased or disappeared entirely is perfectly correlated with my approach to vitA. I even reintroduced things like dairy to see if maybe it was due to an intolerance, doesnt seem to make a difference. The changes are so extreme I just cant think of anything it could be, but the weight gain specifically seems really backward to Grants theory. Ive read a lot about people losing weight, not gaining it. I trust my body knows what its doing, but Id really like to know what the heck this is about. Especially since the weight gain seems to actually have picked up speed (it was less than 1 pound a week the first few months, but its been steady at around 2 per week the last couple months.
I know vitA is active in fat gain. In fact studies show reducing vitA results in fat gain. I dont know if this is because they buggered the studies accidently feeding super high vitA to the no vitA group like they did in the rat studies Grant talked about? Or if its a different mechanism. I cant remember all the mechanisms from his books, but I recall him saying (and the study says so too) that retinol is converted to retinoic acid in fat tissue. I know retionioic acid is more dangerous, but is it a necessary step to detoxify it from the body? Most of the vitA Ive eaten in the last 10 years has come from beta carotenes, like the vast vast majority. Years ago my skin developed an orange hue from eating so much of it. Maybe my body is converting it all to retinol by making me fat, and then retinoic acid to get rid of it? I really have no idea. Im speculating. Anyone else have this experience or am I an outlier?
I have been low A for about 6 months and have maybe gained a little fat but I might have gained more if I had been eating the same number of calories on the low A diet compared to before. I haven't been trying to restrict calories but just eating to feel full. Anyway, I had expected to lose some fat like others and am perplexed as to why I haven't but your possible explanation makes sense! I was eating a lot of carotenoids before too, though not as much or as long as you, and my skin seemed colored from them. Is there a health reason why you are not eating closer to zero A?
Hi Zak, There was some discussion on the weight loss thread under progress reports. I can relate coming from a Matt Stone, more balanced dietary approach and not counting calories. In the first 4-5 months low VA it felt like nothing was happening with my weight and actually increasing. About 5 months I noticed that my body shape was changing. I weighed myself when I gave blood and I was a similar weight to pre VA awareness. I don't know the mechanism however I feel like I have always had a lymphatic sluggishness and have wondered about VA in other parts of the body. As I am detoxing, this is all changing but initially it may present as increasing weight. It feels like it is very slow progress however the turning points sure are worth it.
This may be irrelevant to your situation but I stopped eating wheat before I went low vitamin A and noticed immediately that my appetite and cravings were reduced (a good thing for me) and I could go without food for longer without it being a problem. It only took a couple of days to notice the changes.
I lost weight without any effort just by swapping wheat bread with gluten free bread.
Might not help you at all but just thought I'd share.
Yes I have gotten fatter too! I lost weight (well inches) the first few months and then have gained anywhere from .5 in-1.5 in all over my body. I dont weight myself but I do keep measurements done every so often and of course as a female I am very aware of how clothing fits me. I feel bloated and chubby. I hate it! I am almost 6 months in following dr. Smith's food list (minus butter). I eat mainly chicken, beef, potatoes, rice, cauliflower, green cabbage, onions, mushrooms, some heavy cream in coffee, beans, quinoa, sourdough wheat, oatmeal, quite a snacker with pretzels, chips etc and then quite a bit of fruit. I do have a sweet tooth so I've also been eating Chloe's frozen fruit bars and making banana bread with allowable foods.
Most of my vitamin A came in the form of beta carotene as well.
I've wondered if it was a transport issue as you've stated above. I've also wondered if it's a retinol binding protein (RBP) issue. Dr. Smith posted a while back about how the body can use fat to make RBP and many times if someone is toxic in retinol they will be overweight to not only resolve the issue of storing the retinol but also in hopes to make more RBP for safe transport of retinol. I've wondered if those who don't make enough RBP gain weight so that the body can make more RBP from fat. If retinol is coming out of organs and storage your body needs a safe way to transport it.
Either way I'm planning on cutting back a little on carbs (I've always gained weight from carbs) and increasing protein. A weight problem is the last thing I need.
I gained about 15 pounds since starting this diet in the summer, or rather I regained those pounds. I used to weight about 160 in college about 9 years ago. I went down to 140 following the ray peat diet. I am now sitting at around 155. At first I had edema, but I cut out all the fried foods and oil, and that got rid of the edema and bloating.
Truthfully, I don't know how healthy this kind of weight gain is. Since this diet is largely an experiment, I will try to see if I can find any studies that will provide some clues as to what is going on.
There is a little Bell ringing in my head now regarding weight gain. I cant remember where from, but oedema and weight gain can be a temporary phase and a sign the body is in repair mode, repairing itself on the inside. Might have been from Garret's videos, forum or list, just wanted to share that it might be a temporary phase. But I honestly dont know... I have gotten fluffier with oedema myself after going a bit overboard with butter (lots of birthdays and visitations the past 2 weeks) which has not happened in the past. Either way a really interesting topic. Please keep us updated.
On this diet you need to have iodized salt/bread if you aren't eating low VA seafood. Iodine is found in dairy, eggs and seafood so you are at risk of iodine deficiency. Diet could also be low in other micronutrients that support the thyroid such as selenium if not eating low VA seafood (squid, scallops)...
Don't eat too many crucifers, they suppress thyroid... Other foods such as millet are also goitrogenic.
Hey everyone thanks for the replies. Ill try to address everyones comments in this reply.
So it seems Im at least not totally alone, and it is perhaps interesting that some of you stated you also very high carotenoids too (it may be nothing, but it could be something).
Ive eaten lots of wheat my whole life and its never been an issue, especially not with weight which has always been stable. Also, after a bunch of restrictive eating years ago, Ill never restrict any major food like that again unless I have no choice. Restricting vitamin A is annoying enough. I did try restricting it briefly when I first started the vitA diet because I thought it may be responsible for a lot of digestive problems, but it turns out it wasnt causing any and it was due to something else.
Romaine - the reason im not eating closer to zero vita anymore is because a) I just got so sick of the diet after 45 days that I wanted to kill myself (not literally). I am too lazy to be creative in the kitchen to make things palatable. But also, I have very good reason to believe that the liver flushes Im doing flush out way more cholesterol bound retinoids than I could ever intake in the same period, even if I went back into the hundreds of % RDA. I figure as long as I keep things pretty low, and keep doing the flushes, progress will be way faster than just going zero vitA with no flushes. Also, im continuing to see improvement of symptoms (other than weight gain) so I have little motivation to be more restrictive.
Tim - i think its very unlikely that the weight gain is due to any micronutrient deficiency, tho its a good thought. I eat pretty healthy, I eat massive quantities of iodized salt, on rare occasion take some iodine drops. I rarely eat goitrogenic foods, especially not uncooked ones. I learned that the hard way as a vegan years ago.
LMT - interest point about Dr. Smith. I cant remember if I read/listened to that information from him or not. It sounds vaguely familar. But Ill see if I can find it (unless you have a link?) and see if it fits. If not, Ill just google about the RPB mechanism
Ill update in a couple more months to see if anything has changed. Im not that worried. I have a lot of trust that my body knows what its doing and im gaining weight for a reason, and its probably to somehow make me healthier, even if I dont understand it. And logically it would just be super weird that all my other symptoms got way better if the weight gain in fact is a sign of worsening health. I dont want to interfere with the process, so Ill just keep eating as much as I want, keep the vitA low and the nutrients high, and see what happens.
Liver flushes? Is that Dr. Smiths idea or could you give the details on that? I'm very curious!
By the way, I got maybe a kg fatter as well, I don't have a scale. I'm very lightweight though, so it's not bad.