Quote from Carbon on April 1, 2019, 8:47 am

A common liver flush recipe is to do a fast of a day and at the end of the day just before you go to bed taking 120ml virgin olive oil mixed with the juice of a lemon (or a grapefruit). The theory is that the bile fluid will expel all trapped stones in the liver or gallbladder. Note however, research has shown that the expelled stones mainly consist of balls of saponified olive oil.

Question is if the liver flush helps to expel vitamin A. If it does I suppose it must be mainly in the bile fluid itself and not in gallstones (if any). I found this article: Excretion of vitamin a metabolites in the bile
"Abstract: The concentration of vitamin A metabolites excreted in the bile is low when liver stores are low, but the excretion rate increases rapidly at higher liver reserves of the vitamin."

Bile however also regulates the uptake of vitamin A by the liver. As described in:
The role of vitamin A in bile acid synthesis and transport and the relevance for cholestatic liver disease.

So looks like liver flushes might work to quickly dump excess vitamin A but probably best combined with activated carbon to prevent re-uptake.

Quote from Zak on April 1, 2019, 4:08 pm

My apologies for the delay,

Kirito - no as far as Im aware, Dr. Smith hasnt mentioned it. It is one of those things that (like the vitA diet I suppose) is met with a lot of skepticism even in the alt-health community, not sure whether he knows about it or is yet open to it or not.

Thatgutwitjtjeneck - yes, that is my theory is that it does. Those that support the practice say it dispels toxicity from the liver and body (ie - heavy metals, etc), but none of those supporters or experts seem to have ever linked it to vitA. But when I read all of grants stuff, I strongly suspected the main form of toxicity it was actually expelling must be vitamin A. If you go through a few dozen (or hundred) testimonials, you'll see that the symptom reversals from ONLY doing the liver flushes seem to be so wide ranging (including things like eliminating eczema and other autoimmune disease), that it must be because of reducing vitamin A stores, if grants theory is correct. Please note; ive become very skeptical of most alt-cures, especially diet related, due to short term health 'benefits' of increasing levels of catecholamines at a long term cost to health (for example, going paleo). However, this flush is so infrequent, and doesnt seem to active any of those mechanisms, and all the benefits seem possible without even changing diet. The only thing I can see that explains all those benefits that are reported is if its due to vitamin A reduction, and thus the benefits are permanent. My experiences and huge benefits, even with only maintaining a 25-35% vitA RDA while doing the flushes every 3 weeks, tho anecdotal and N=1, certainly help confirm that (other than the fat gain mystery which is as of yet, undetermined in cause)

https://www.iraisemyhealth.info/all-testimonials.html

Carbon -  there is a minority of people who report expelling some calcified stones (which are what we call 'gallstones') the vast vast majority of stones released are soft. I make no claims as to what they are made of; there seems to be a huge controversy over this online, and Ive heard and seen lab results posted online of it being cholesterol balls, and Ive heard, but not seen lab results that its just saponified olive oil. Ive read the explanations in depth on both sides. There is so much disinformation everywhere from both big pharma mouth pieces and alternative health experts that its just a shitshow out there of what is actually going on. But my main reason why I strongly suspect the balls must not be saponified fat is because the end result for the thousands of testimonials out there (with no profit incentive to fake the anecdotes) seems to strongly reflect the same benefits that grant suggests are possible by eliminating vitA long term.

The other possibility that I can see is that the stones really ARE saponified fat from the olive oil, and have nothing to do with the health reversals at all. And that, as you suggest and outline, the benefit is entirely from the rapid expulsion of the vitA laden bile along with the balls, which is expelled far too rapidly for much to be reabsorbed in the intestines. This is also possible. Im not a liver expert or a chemist, so Im open to this being the explanation. I will note though that a massive number of testimonials seem to claim that a turning point for their health was after expelling a massive number or massive size of those fatty stones. Also, when I first went vitA free and also started doing flushes, one of my symptoms I had had for months prior was the right side of my lower ribcage would hurt a lot after eating meals (thats right where the liver is). Doing flushes made the pain go away for a few days and then it would come back (stones?) Eventually, after flush number 6-7 the pain went away and never came back. So for those 2 reasons and others, Im leaning towards them being made of cholesterol until someone I trust to not be a big pharma shill shows me their lab report proving otherwise lol. I've reflected on this a lot and I wish I knew for certain, but either way, it appears to be

liver flush =  reduction in the same symptoms that are reduced from going low vitA

and that is whats ultimately important to me.

One other thought; while some people mentioned they didnt lose weight or even gained some small amount from the vitA diet, I do wonder if its no coincidence that Im a massive outlier in the fat gain department and also as far as im aware, the only one of grants test subjects doing liver flushes along side the vitA experiment. My hypothesis is that perhaps the liver flushes started clearing out cholesterol stones from the liver, which massively increased my livers capacity to convert my enormous quantities of beta-carotene throughout my body into its (relatively safer?) retinol form which could be (relatively safely?) stored in fat cells. https://chem.libretexts.org/Bookshelves/Biological_Chemistry/Supplemental_Modules_(Biological_Chemistry)/Vitamins%2C_Cofactors_and_Coenzymes/Vitamin_A

I cannot overemphasize the incredible level of stupidity I exercised for almost a decade eating such insane quantities of beta carotene, and so while I dont understand all the vitA mechanisms in the body, I wouldnt be surprised at all if the fat gain along side all the huge benefits is due to an increased capacity of my liver to convert vitamin A because of the liver flushes. Highly speculative, so hopefully someone who knows more about the human body and retinoids can tell me if this theory holds any weight or not.

Quote from Thatgutwitjtjeneck on April 1, 2019, 6:50 pm

I had read about it from Andrea mortiz long time ago just never tried it.

Is there a brief guide on how to do it in one day?

Quote from who_am_i on April 1, 2019, 10:47 pm

@ Zak: Do you follow Moritz whole protocol (i.e. low fat during the week, epsom salts, etc.) or do you just do the olive oil + lemon juice mixture? What's your take on coffee enemas in context of VA depletion?

Quote from Zak on April 2, 2019, 5:09 am

I follow Moritz's protocol, but none of his diet advice (anymore). I eat whatever I want during the week leading up to the flush. And then I stuff in as many low fat super high carb foods the morning of the flush (if I dont ill be miserable all day and wont be able to sleep that night). I do however take malic acid for the week prior (an alternative to the apple juice, which is necessary to soften the stones, according to everything Ive read).

I suspect coffee enemas work, and may work for the same reasons as the liver flush (removing vitA?) In fact, I have read a minority of testimonials claiming that they sometimes  get the same cholesterol balls or even calified stones as doing the liver flush (which is another reason I dont think the soft balls can be saponified olive oil. But the vast majority of people report no stones. I'd done a couple of them years ago (no stones for me). However, I do not think they are nearly as effective as the olive oil liver flush, and I really hate putting stuff in my butt as a regular routine especially if there are effective alternatives lol. And I couldnt find any long term testimonials for the coffee enemas that seemed to be nearly as incredible as the liver flush ones. So I no longer do them and pretty much have gone all in on liver flushes + low vitA diet as the easiest, most effective way to heal without wanting to kill myself from unpleasant procedures and highly restrictive diets.

Below is a copy pasted instructional, which I edited slightly because I do things a bit different. Definitely do your own research before attempting it, but this is generally what it would look like. Its rather unpleasant. But at least for me, it beats going years on a rice and beef and grapejuice diet lol. Six weeks of that was more than enough.

Ingredients

• 6 1-L containers of apple juice OR 24 Oz apple cider vinegar*
• 2 colon hydrotherapy sessions
• ¼ cup Epsom salts (food grade)
• 710 ml filtered water
• ½ cup olive oil*
• 12 T fresh organic citrus juice, about 1 large grapefruit or 3 large lemons

Instructions

1. For six days' drink the apple juice or ACV throughout the day (OR 1 tsp of malic acid spread out through the day for 6 days).
2. On day six try to eat light and stop eating at about 1:30 PM*, eat very low fat.
3. At 6:00 PM add Epsom salts to water, stir together. Divide this mixture into four glasses (1table spoon per glass). Drink one of these glasses now, if need be add some fresh lemon juice to help with the taste. Try not to throw up.
4. At 8:00 PM drink your second serving of Epsom salts. By 9:30 PM you should have a bowel movement.
5. At 9:45 PM prepare your oil and juice mixture. Juice your grapefruits and lemons (you can squeeze them by hand if you don't have a juicer, cover with a cheese cloth to strain pulp). Pour the juice and olive oil in a jar and shake together until the solution is watery. Drink the mixture at 10:00 PM and immediately go to bed, laying flat. Try to avoid getting up and doing anything!
6. On day seven drink your third glass of Epsom salts as soon as you wake up. You can go back to sleep at this point if you’d like.
7. Two hours later drink your last glass of Epsom salts.
8. Two hours later you may have some fruit or fresh juice. Wait to eat for at least another hour. During this day you will be passing the majority of the gallstones. You may be very tired and not feel like doing or eating much, so let yourself rest!
9. Within three days get a second colon hydrotherapy session to ensure all stones have passed. (this is very important if you have slow digestion, some people who dont do it ever have reported getting quite ill after flushes, for me, I just do an enema every 2-4 flushes now, I dont do it every time, because... I hate butt stuff)

Quote from Carbon on April 2, 2019, 8:25 am

@Zak,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and questioning the exact composition of the liver-flush stones. On hindsight it is indeed hard to believe the stones are made of saponified olive-oil. I have done flushes as well following the protocol you posted above. I remember that the first time I had massive amount of stones and also a huge amount of white cholesterol crystals. In later attempts the number of stones decreased and I have never seen the cholesterol crystals anymore. If the stones would have been made from saponified olive-oil I would expect the same results over and over again. As the stones have a solid "pea" like structure of 1/4 to 1/2 Inch it is also hard to believe they can be created overnight.

On breathing.com/blogs/internal-cleansing/liver-cleanse  is an extended description of liver flush & coffee enemas. The author also tries to explain the composition of stones and that they really originate from the liver. "People who have their gallbladder surgically removed still eliminate plenty of green, bile-coated stones with this liver cleanse and anyone who cares to dissect their stones can see that the concentric circles and crystals of cholesterol match textbook pictures of "gallstones" exactly."

Anyway I think that the approach of  25-35% vit A RDA combined with flushes every 3 weeks might work well.

Quote from Zak on April 5, 2019, 11:33 am

Quote from Carbon on April 2, 2019, 8:25 am

@Zak,

Thanks for sharing your experiences and questioning the exact composition of the liver-flush stones. On hindsight it is indeed hard to believe the stones are made of saponified olive-oil. I have done flushes as well following the protocol you posted above. I remember that the first time I had massive amount of stones and also a huge amount of white cholesterol crystals. In later attempts the number of stones decreased and I have never seen the cholesterol crystals anymore. If the stones would have been made from saponified olive-oil I would expect the same results over and over again. As the stones have a solid "pea" like structure of 1/4 to 1/2 Inch it is also hard to believe they can be created overnight.

On breathing.com/blogs/internal-cleansing/liver-cleanse  is an extended description of liver flush & coffee enemas. The author also tries to explain the composition of stones and that they really originate from the liver. "People who have their gallbladder surgically removed still eliminate plenty of green, bile-coated stones with this liver cleanse and anyone who cares to dissect their stones can see that the concentric circles and crystals of cholesterol match textbook pictures of "gallstones" exactly."

Anyway I think that the approach of  25-35% vit A RDA combined with flushes every 3 weeks might work well.

Thankyou. Yes I have had similar experiences as the one you describe, massive differences in quantity and quality from flush to flush. Ive really tried to see this one from all angles and think of how I could be wrong, but all my personal experiences added up really make it seem like they must be cholesterol (and hopefully, laden with vitA too).

Quote from Zak on May 28, 2019, 11:14 am

UPDATE: Im now 9 months into this experiment. Another 2 months have gone by. Ive gained another 8 pounds, so Im now up to 228! Fuck me! (oh wait, no one would want to now, im fat). Haha. So Im now up 46 pounds total in 9 months. But ive made some interesting observations.

First of all, Im NO LONGER HYPERTHYROID! Blood tests are perfect again. My only symptom now that has gotten worse is my weight gain. Other symptoms have continued to improve the last 2 months. My sleep is WAY better in the last 2 months. My sex drive is off the charts (by my standards anyway, for a 34 year old fatty). And all my other symptoms have either stabilized or are still remarkably improved from when I started going low vitA with liver flushes.I had somewhere around 25 symptoms when I was at my worst, and about 20 of them are significantly better or gone, 5 havent improved but havent continued to worsen, and then the new symptom of being fat is the only remaining bad one that is worsening.

Second, I have now definitely noticed a strong correlation between the liver flush, my appetite, and my weight. Ive now done I think, 13-14 flushes since I started going low vitA. Ive noticed that whenever I get very few stones out, my appetite is lower and I gain less weight. After 2-3 weeks from the previous flush, my appetite will also be lower and I gain less weight. My appetite is strongest right after the flushes for the first week, ESPECIALLY when I get a ton of stones out. For example, I gained zero pounds for the last half of April and the first half of May (an entire month), but thats because (I think) the liver flush at the start of May I got no stones out, and the one before that in the second week of April I got almost none. But the one I did a week ago I got an enormous amount out. And I gained 5 frigging pounds in a week and my appetite has been huge ever since then. I just dont think that can be a coincidence. The correlation is very strong.

So Im really starting to think my theory about retinoids is correct. Im still very open to be corrected if this theory doesnt make sense. But what Im really starting to believe now is that the massive amounts of stored carotenoids in my skin and other tissues from a decade of being an idiot raw vegan (back when my skin was orange) are only now able to be converted into retinol because my liver is more free of stones and thus much more efficient at conversion. The retinoids are then stored relatively safely in fat cells, because Im producing far more retinoids per day than I can safely detox per day, even though my consumption is quite low (around 25% RDA). So my body has to increase appetite to consume enough calories to create fat to store the retinoids in. If the theory is correct, then at some point, my body will run out of stored carotenoids, and then will be able to detoxify the remaining retinoids much faster than Im consuming them, and Ill lose all the weight quite quickly. If this makes no sense, or anyone has an alternate theory, please let me know!

I still refuse to restrict calories in any way, I eat as much as I want, and I eat whatever I want, with my only restriction being avoidance or severe restriction of vitA foods. Im going on faith here that my body knows what it is doing, and its getting fatter for a reason, because it makes no sense that Id be getting so much better in every conceivable way if the fat gain was a bad thing.

Quote from Orion on May 28, 2019, 11:24 am

I think this is inline with Grant's hypothesis:  https://ggenereux.blog/2018/10/08/obesity-causation/

Very curious to see if the weight will go after the VA is depleted, body and liver can store ~2yrs worth, so this might be another ~12month journey.   I gained some weight in the last 7 months, about 10lbs, but clothes fit the same, I am hoping for a stabilization in the future too, with current lean build.