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Iron Deficiency and Morley Robbins “Root Cause Protocol”
@puddleduck the increase in heartrate from laying to standing, would be blood pressure i think? Have you attempted to increase electrolytes, I think getting lots of salt? getting enough potassium, sodium and magnesium? Do you think your thyroid is OK? what is your morning waking oral temperature? Not aware but is iron related to blood pressure?
I think @ggenereux2014 iron levels are ok, Grant did you ever have issues with iron levels?
Morley Robbins is crazy. I was on his "protocol" after doing Ray Peat style of eating and it is miracle that I survive.. He basically thinks that almost all issues are due to iron toxicity and that nobody on this world has iron deficiency which is completely insane.. Also he doesn't understand copper metabolism at all. Copper overload or toxicity is very common and it is very damaging.. Copper can keep your adrenals depleted due to very stimulative and pro oxidant effect. Fixing copper issues is next to impossible for regular people. But excess iron can be fixed just by donating blood.. Everybody from Ray Peat, Robbins, Paleo people etc.. are pushing beef liver. but they don't know that vit A and copper in high amount can handle only very healthy person with high metabolism. Otherwise you just induce vit A and copper toxicity... Anyway for low iron I would never take iron from supplements. Just eat good amount of red meat and take some vit C with it..
@orion I think blood pressure can be a part of it, for some POTS patients for sure. Not sure if BP is related to iron or not. I don’t have a way of testing BP myself, but my doctor did and said it was normal at that moment. I haven’t seen a neurologist yet so I don’t know if this applies to me, but sometimes this symptom can be related to the autonomic nervous system not working properly.
Thyroid tests were all in range, and so were my electrolytes. Temp was bang on at 37 degrees C midmorning, but I will check basal tomorrow (good idea, thank you 🙂).
But yeah, salt does improve things! It helps a lot. If my legs get jumpy, I eat salt and it stops lol.
Quote from Jiří on March 17, 2020, 7:42 amMorley Robbins is crazy. I was on his "protocol" after doing Ray Peat style of eating and it is miracle that I survive.. He basically thinks that almost all issues are due to iron toxicity and that nobody on this world has iron deficiency which is completely insane.. Also he doesn't understand copper metabolism at all. Copper overload or toxicity is very common and it is very damaging.. Copper can keep your adrenals depleted due to very stimulative and pro oxidant effect. Fixing copper issues is next to impossible for regular people. But excess iron can be fixed just by donating blood.. Everybody from Ray Peat, Robbins, Paleo people etc.. are pushing beef liver. but they don't know that vit A and copper in high amount can handle only very healthy person with high metabolism. Otherwise you just induce vit A and copper toxicity... Anyway for low iron I would never take iron from supplements. Just eat good amount of red meat and take some vit C with it..
Yeah, he does come off as a bit...well...dogmatic to the point of arrogance? 😝 It’s unlikely that everyone has the exact same problem with iron. Also, I don’t understand copper metabolism at all either, and it’s daunting to try to figure it out myself (I don’t know if I even have time to read as much as I would have to in order to grasp it). 🙃
Thanks for sharing your experience, @jiri ! I’m definitely not planning to start eating beef liver again. 😝
I think I’m gonna go ahead and work with Dr. Smith on this... He knows how a lot about helping the body balance minerals, and he’s aware of the Vitamin A detox aspect as well. 👍
Garrett Smith recently posted on his Mighty Network about the effects of vit A on ceruloplasmin and copper. Normally I wouldn't share because this information is private, but since I am the one who got him a copy of this paper I feel like it's OK to link to it:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1p2-yLEwBN5ZB3trEUFZoawQyU5vnmRf6/view?usp=sharing
His takeaway: "This paper shows, without a doubt, that MORE VA = LESS CERULOPLASMIN. What this means is that the less ceruloplasmin one has, the more FREE COPPER is floating around and causing damage. That's VERY bad. The chickens they gave a "VA deficiency" to had the MOST ceruloplasmin out of all of them!"
The effect on overall copper levels is a bit more nuanced. Chicks fed the VA deficient diet and the high VA diet had lower levels of copper in plasma and higher levels in the liver compared to chicks fed a 'moderate' VA diet. The experiment lasted a month so it would be interesting to know how the low VA diet affects overall copper levels over a longer period of time. Note that the deficient diet appears to have been genuinely deficient in vit A. The experiment started when the chicks were 1 day old.
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Saw Josh’s post in Tim’s log, and thought I should re-post it here in case anyone is searching the forum for The Root Cause Protocol, and wanting information about ceruloplasmin.
Quote from puddleduck on March 16, 2020, 5:24 pmHi everyone! 😁
So I got my iron tested recently, and these were my results (out of range results in red):
- ferritin (blood) 9 (reference range 13-150 ug/L)
- iron 6 (reference range 6-35 umol/L)
- TIBC 46 (reference range 41-77 umol/L)
- saturation 0.13 (reference ranges 0.15-0.50)
- Hgb 132 (reference range 116-159 g/L)
I was prepared to get iron injections or infusions (because supplements never raised my ferritin levels in the past—I had similar levels 15 years ago, and only managed to raise them to 86 after getting iron injections), HOWEVER a friend in a facebook group who had a bad experience with iron infusions (even though she was truly anemic), suggested I look into the work of Morley Robbins (of the “Magnesium Advocacy Group” and the “Root Cause Protocol”).
Robbins has the idea that “Anemia of Chronic Inflammation” occurs when five markers are present, which are:
1) LOW Mag RBC
2) LOW or HIGH Ceruloplasmin
3) LOW serum Iron
4) LOW % Sat
5) LOW Ferritin
He thinks this indicates the presence of stored iron, that the body can’t utilize, due to copper and magnesium deficiency.
He thinks vitamin D is dangerous because it depletes retinol. He likes retinol for some reason (something to do with the copper/iron balance, but I forget what).
ANYWAY, I have yet to read the studies he mentions in this video, but it gives a good introduction to his ideas: https://therootcauseprotocol.com/a-birthday-gift-from-morley-to-you/
I know bludicka has seen improvements from taking copper, and I wonder how all of this connects to the vitamin A detox.
Needless to say, I am reconsidering getting iron injections or infusions this time...
Any thoughts?
Hello, zinc supplements cause anemia, it has already been proven, I am sure you took a large amount of zinc
Quote from El on September 21, 2023, 1:21 amQuote from puddleduck on March 16, 2020, 5:24 pmHi everyone!
So I got my iron tested recently, and these were my results (out of range results in red):
- ferritin (blood) 9 (reference range 13-150 ug/L)
- iron 6 (reference range 6-35 umol/L)
- TIBC 46 (reference range 41-77 umol/L)
- saturation 0.13 (reference ranges 0.15-0.50)
- Hgb 132 (reference range 116-159 g/L)
I was prepared to get iron injections or infusions (because supplements never raised my ferritin levels in the past—I had similar levels 15 years ago, and only managed to raise them to 86 after getting iron injections), HOWEVER a friend in a facebook group who had a bad experience with iron infusions (even though she was truly anemic), suggested I look into the work of Morley Robbins (of the “Magnesium Advocacy Group” and the “Root Cause Protocol”).
Robbins has the idea that “Anemia of Chronic Inflammation” occurs when five markers are present, which are:
1) LOW Mag RBC
2) LOW or HIGH Ceruloplasmin
3) LOW serum Iron
4) LOW % Sat
5) LOW Ferritin
He thinks this indicates the presence of stored iron, that the body can’t utilize, due to copper and magnesium deficiency.
He thinks vitamin D is dangerous because it depletes retinol. He likes retinol for some reason (something to do with the copper/iron balance, but I forget what).
ANYWAY, I have yet to read the studies he mentions in this video, but it gives a good introduction to his ideas: https://therootcauseprotocol.com/a-birthday-gift-from-morley-to-you/
I know bludicka has seen improvements from taking copper, and I wonder how all of this connects to the vitamin A detox.
Needless to say, I am reconsidering getting iron injections or infusions this time...
Any thoughts?
Hello, zinc supplements cause anemia, it has already been proven, I am sure you took a large amount of zinc
My ferritin was extremely low for a decade before I started zinc supplementation. Excess blood loss is the root cause of both my iron deficiency and zinc deficiency.
I have always taken my iron and zinc supplements at separate meals, and sometimes even alternate days, so the zinc doesn’t interfere with iron absorption.
Both zinc and iron supplements improve my symptoms.
@puddleduck - How are you doing so far? Has there been any progress in your heath and iron status? I started listening to Morley Robbins recently and it kind of makes sense in my situation when I was taking 2-3 grams of sodium ascorbate and vitamin D for a couple months and my health took a complete nosedive. If I hadn't stopped and also avoided EMF's I would surely have died not long after. I was eating a lot of beef too trying out the carnivore so the iron overload was optimal. vC, cD and heme iron, my ferritin was clost to 600 above the max 400 for men. I went back and looked at my hair test for the times following the supplementatoion and my copper was on the low percentile for a like 3 years until 2023 although my ceuroplasmin during that time didn't show copper deficiency, just hair. IT wasn't until 2023 that when I started eating a lot of chocolate protein bars that my copper hair test started to get back to normal. This is why it seems Morley Robbins may be right about copper, iron, and vA. Not to imply that this low vA is wrong but there might be some nuances that we may be missing. It's been 7 years since and only getting worse, and only just buying a little more time. Just wanted to see how you were doing because I've had a lot of the same symptoms you have, especially with the standing up or running up the stairs too fast and feeling dizzy or out of shape is what I thought. But I've since realized EMF's had a major part in that, avoid it and I was better. My sincere advice for everyone is to get a Cornet plus meter and take note of the levels of EMF's you are exposed in your home. Each home or area is different. Find something lower and I bet the symptoms would improve. That doesn't fix the circumstances in our bodies that makes us more sensitive to EMF's than others, but it's a first response with the greatest and quickest benefit. A difference of life and death for my now severe severe sensitivity. .