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Jenny’s pros and cons of vA detox
I wrote comments on the vA toxicity Facebook page that described my honest experiences of the vA detox. I thought it might be a good idea to post here too. I want to be honest about the harm I consider this has done to me. Good too, but not all good. I’ve now had two seizures and am highly sensitive to many foods, drinks and supplements that I wasn’t before. Also my anxiety has been stratospheric on the detox, although I’m getting a handle on that now (glutamate-GABA imbalance I think).
‘My aim in sharing what has happened to me is to try and prevent it happening to others. Pretending all is hunky dory with all us long term detoxers is deceptive and does not fit with my ethics. Perhaps we do not represent the majority (but maybe we do?) but we are certainly a substantial minority.
The vA detox diet works to reduce excess vA in the body. This improves symptoms related to this. My symptoms were weight gain (the sort that made no sense), prediabetes, high cholesterol, behind the eye intense headaches, pulse tinnitus, extreme light sensitivity, gritty eyes, face redness (rosacea?) and numerous little irritations like cracked heels and yellow dots under eye etc. All gone. That’s the good news. However, the detox, done in the way I did it, has caused me collateral damage. This collateral damage has actually induced more serious symptoms which have severely affected the quality of my life. Therefore, I’m letting people know.
Grant Genereux (whose site I highly recommend) has been talking about the ‘detox setback cycle’ for several years now. People who improve for a certain amount of time on the vA detox but then get worse, sometimes a lot worse. He did a survey about this in 2019 that I shall try and find. He himself did not go through this, but many do and he recognises this. It’s long been thought that people run into deficiencies, choline would fit the picture. A diet very high in meat would cover the choline requirements and Grant ate a lot of meat so it’s possible that this is the issue and the difference between success and failure. These matters need to be considered carefully and the evidence examined as Andrew Baird is currently doing. Dismissing such a weight of evidence as rubbish just isn’t acceptable imo.
The other issue with the vA detox imo is that according to Steven Rochlitz, 20% of us have the genetics for secondary porphyria. This is triggered by exposure to large levels of toxicity that need detoxifying by the CYP450 enzymes, because these enzymes get upregulated in the face of lots of work and require increased heme production. VA requires CYP450 to detoxify it. For people with these genetics exposure to high amounts of toxicity is a disaster and a fast detox IS exposure to high amounts of toxicity.
Slow detox (don’t go zero vA) and plenty of choline would be my tips for vA detox. Also don’t remove fruit and vegetables. Having said that, some people go the carnivore route and seem to swear it’s the best (see discussion on Grant’s forum). I wouldn’t personally do that. Do not start to think of vA as a poison. This is fear inducing. It’s not. It’s a poison in EXCESS, in greater amounts that the body can deal with. Obviously particular vA foods inducing symptoms need to be avoided (peppers were bad for me). But mainly just get rid of the major sources and enjoy life. That’s my top tip. Don’t become obsessed with avoiding all vA. It will not serve you well.’
‘ Grant’s blog about detox setback cycle in Jan 2020 (not 2019).
https://ggenereux.blog/2020/01/
Also I should have added to the comment above that I’ve had covid x3 times (why so often?) and this has added to my toxicity exposure. Anthony Mawson says that covid is induced vA toxicity suggesting that covid involves a ‘vA dump’ - so just fast detox by another name?
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33983857/
I’m quite sure this hasn’t helped me get through the vA detox without collateral damage if it’s forced a toxicity dump that my body couldn’t cope with. Another factor to consider in all this.’
Just to add that I’ve emailed Grant a while back about my new symptoms and my suspicions that the vA detox has caused collateral damage in me, so I’m not saying anything duplicitous here. Grant was very interested, as he always is in peoples experiences. He knows the diet in its current form - just cut out vA - is not enough for many people and there are missing factors to still understand.
@jaj, I'm sorry that you are having this problem about seizures. I quickly did a search on the web about them and found out that a portion of people with lupus get seizures, and I like to think that lupus is just another word for VA toxicity. (which is why lupus is so mysterious)
I obviously agree with you about not going too crazy with VA reduction, as that is how I've proceeded from the start. When I arrived here I was just burnt-out on heroic diet changes in general and just wishing I'd stuck with the diet of my grandmother, who lived to age 99. Her's was just a bland, regular every-day northern-European-based American diet. Definitely NOT "eat the rainbow" and she didn't eat liver either. In my case I feel that I'm getting better on all fronts but my progress proceeds at the speed of glaciers. Along the way I've realized that I need to keep in mind my entire toxic load, and not just the VA.
@jaj Hi Jenny. I'm sorry to read that, but glad that you're sharing.
I'm very disapointed with the way the LYL network is going. I rarely go there anymore, I just jumped in the other day as using MMS lead me to a appendicitis crisis and I had to be hospitalised. I no longer have my appendix sadly. To be fair, I did follow the protocol 1000 of Jim Humble, and not the way they talk about it in the programm so that's not on them. But I just wanted people to be more cautious about it.
I too have done the low vA strictly for 1 year, but I can't say that I've seen much happen from it. Actually, my psoriasis was VERY bad with the high starch load (with or without beans/soluble fiber) and no, it was not "detox" (just lol at this point)
I also still have that constant upper right quadrant tenderness. I'm trying different things, notably using okra (or gombo) which has been shown to have a very high BA binding capacity in a study. I can't remember the exact number, but lets say that cholestyramine was at 100, then all other vegetables/fruits were around 10. Okra was around 50-60 which is HUGE.
The first time I tried okra (just brought water to boil, cut the gas, and threw a 100g of chopped raw/frozen okra in it for 10min or so) the experience was crazy. Within 30 freaking minutes, the congestion on my right upper back (GB/Liver pain projection) just vanished. This was the first time in 2 full years. Never happened with ANY source of soluble fiber, binders etc.. NEVER !
Obviously, it retuned a couple hours after. Been using it morning and evening away from food for 3-4 days now, and each time I use it the pain vanish. Then it comes back, tho I feel its less intense. The GB pain is still very much there tho, but at least I have hope and will keep going. Maybe you could give it a go ?
I will let everyone knows how it goes. I still eat eggs as well, as well as a small amount of ghee to cook. For the most part, I'm eating low vA vegetables except specific ones, such as arugula (for the nitrate) and will try to ferment beets for the same things (+ the betaine) as I can't handle too much starch (thus no quinoa, spelt..)
I'm also experimenting with a specific sourdough bread made from an ancient hard wheat as I think that there is a good amount of betaine in it as well.
I will also start to liver flush again. On restrospect, after successfull flushes I would feel such joy, calm and happiness that this cannot be ignored. It's also the only time where my pso almost completely disappeared for a whole week (never did this in 6 years). I've talked with several "flush veteran" that have done 100+ of them (and got lots of improvments), and I believe that hoping that 10-20 flush will fix all issues (as I thought) is not realistic. Like we see here, it takes many years to get better. So if flushes are just getting rid of the toxic bile (violently, yes) then one must use them as a tool for years as well (with other tools, like Okra and methylation - betaine, choline. - support for instance)
We should make a specific FB group or something for people that are interested about this truly, not blindly following concepts.
Just a thought.
Hope you're doing well,
Mat
Have you tried activated charcoal to bind the bile acid in the body? I think it's quite up there with cholestyramine. I wasn't aware that okra is pretty good at it too.
How do you do the liver flushes? Something I've been meaning to try but never really got by doing it. I found some instructions over at cure zone but rather would rely on personal experience.
Yeah, I tried every binder out there. AC did not produce the okra's effect - not even close. And it gave me massive constipation (okra doesnt at all)
Regarding the flush, I have performed 18 in total. A few of them were very beneficial but most didnt do anything. So for a while I stopped, as I did not undertood why. A couple of days ago, I went back and did a deep dive at my food/symptom diary of these last 2 years. I noticed a pattern, and this is why I decided to try again the flush.
I noticed that the flushes that produce benefits the day/week after it were the flush where I was using bile acid or TUDCA during the week prior of the flush. I did not noticed the pattern because bile acid and/or TUDCA do not help my symptoms on a regular basis. But it appears that if used in conjunction with the flush, it brought great temporary improvment.
The successfull flushes were great : the day afterward I had such mental clarity, joy and happiness it was a very intense experience. Can't really explain, like if you were living in a constant "fog of toxicity", and the flush somehow lifted this fog temporarily, and brought you back to the feeling of your true self when you were a children with a much lower toxicity burden. It seems woowoo but it's the only way I can explain it.
So in restrospect, here is the flush recipe that helps me the most (please keep in mind that it's a supposition at this point that I made while diving back in my log. I'll confirm in a couple of week/months when I'll put the theory to the test) :
Essentially, it's the Moritz's recipe, with some tweaks :
- 14-7days prior to the flush, I used some form of bile acids/TUDCA
- 7 days prior to the flush, I did use malic acid powder in water and drank it through the day
- 7 days prior to the flush, I would use choleretic and cholagogue tinctures (such as fumaria officinalis and/or chanca piedra)
- The actual day of the flush, I would fast all day and drink enough water as dehydratation will prevent the flush to work
- The day of the flush, I would take either epsom salt or mg citrate according to the recipe (Moritz) at 18pm and 20pm
- The day of the flush, I would take a water enema around 21pm
- At 22pm, I would drink the mixture (oil + citrus) and lie on the bed on the right side with a hot water bottle on the liver
- 15min later or so, I would take a dose of the tincture used before to have a bit more squeezing
Then, I would sleep and when waking up, I'll take again the epsom salt / mg citrate upong waking and 2h after. I would eat a light breakfast (fat free) 1h after the last dose. You should have several bowel movments rather quickly.
A day or two later, I would perform a coffee enema to evacuate the bile that has solidified but did not got out yet.
Since I have low primary bile acids on tests, I wonder if the usage of some form of bile acids is key for the flush to be efficient. I think that is the most important piece for it to work, at least for me. I'll report back !
" 1. The actual day of the flush, I would fast all day and drink enough water as dehydratation will prevent the flush to work"
But do you realize that drinking a lot of pure water will flush sodium from the body = will dehydrate you not hydrate you? SO many people don't understand this and will keep saying "drink a lot of water so you are hydrated.." If you want to be really hydrated drink water with sodium and glucose that will keep that water in your body..
Good point. I'm using mineral water + sea salt in it the day of the flush. No glucose tho, and I'm not "over drinking" at all. Maybe 1.5L per day or so, like I usually do. What I meant by that is that when I do forgot to drink enough fluid, it seemed to worsen the result. The adding of salt or not in the water does not make any difference, tho I feel better with a little bit in it yes.
Also, I'm not doing a low carb diet so 1 day of fasting won't bring much dehydratation if I just drink normally. I do know that in the past, when trying the ketogenic diet for a while dehydration was very severe, specifically due to the K loss. Heavy muscle cramping, despite the consumption of salt in food + water.
@mat I was wondering if chanca piedra might help you and then I found this study say it reduces uric acid (possible indicator of vit A toxicity). Then checked the forum and realised you'd mentioned it.
The study: https://academic.oup.com/jpp/article/68/8/953/6128179?login=false
Nicole Marie on Facebook said this:
Thanks @mat for your kind words. So sorry to hear about your appendix. I’m hoping the vA toxicity Facebook page with Josh and Andrew as admins will remain a free speech zone. There are some people there who seem to think that marvellous truths come from Smith’s mouth and are indisputable. They will sadly have to learn the hard way. Or maybe they’ll be lucky and won’t be damaged by his badly researched advice. This man is not a scientist and as he doesn’t listen to his clients he isn’t learning much from them either. Not to be trusted and I did learn the hard way.