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lil chick's log
@Tim and @lil chick - you're likely right about animal fat and seafood as the best sources. I was looking into the thing about flax oil not converting well to EPA/DHA and found an interesting bit in this paper about flax, sunflower and camelina oils and the effects of culinary practices and temperature leading to isomerization and other things.
Comparative analysis of selected bioactive components (fatty acids, tocopherols, xanthophyll, lycopene, phenols) and basic nutrients in raw and thermally processed camelina, sunflower, and flax seeds
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6706495/pdf/13197_2019_Article_3899.pdf
The values of the fatty acid indices calculated for the analyzed seeds indicate a need for substantial variation and, hence, optimization of the diet.
It is important from the dietary point of view to maintain the n-6/n-3 acid ratio at a level from 4:1 to 2:1.
(comment: interesting, the 4:1 ratio agrees with the BodyBio folks, but I wonder if the 2:1 is even better.)
An important component of n-3 acids is ALA, which is converted into DHA and EPA in the organism. With the high content of ALA, flax seeds are recommended as an element of nutritional prophylaxis e.g. in cardiovascular diseases and for menopausal females (DeLuca et al. 2018).
However, the present investigations indicate high sensitivity of these seeds to the modification of the fat fraction and its health-promoting parameters induced by the thermal treatment.
The health-enhancing conversion of ALA into DHA and EPA is dependent on e.g. the nutritional regime.
It is blocked by an excessive level of consumed n-6 acids and trans fatty acids.
(comment: I don't know how anyone could optimize their health by targeting these ratios unless they were blood-testing often enough to watch the effects of diet changes. I tried to investigate this quantitative aspect using the NutritionDataSelf.com site for sardines. There's a way to expand the relevant section to get a breakdown of all the various fatty acids. The one thing I did get from that was the big difference between Atlantic and Pacific sardines. The Atlantic ones have lots more of the desired molecules and are nearly the same VA content.)
@Tim - I'd love to read your critique of this one. I'm doing a little side-project to try and figure out if these cardiologists pushing a plant-based diet are being honest or not. It seems like there may be one in every major city like this guy, if not as famous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX0ssckEbvE
Part of the problem I see is that there is no way to do Regenerative Agriculture without livestock in sufficient numbers and there's no way to do livestock in sufficient numbers without eating them. We can't keep treating the soil like it is some sterile medium, but presently, commercial "organic" is not necessarily much better than commercial non-organic in that regard, and from a nutrient-density, Brix-measure perspective, there is quite often no difference. I have done a bit of that in stores. I've also read long critiques of the environmental damage potential of not getting this right; critiques that include how commercial "organic" is vastly out-pacing all variety of small-scale alternative methods of raising food, and how the consolidation of land by somewhat anonymous financial groups is going full-steam ahead. It would be a full-time job keeping up with the modern-day 'Grapes of Wrath' and I don't claim to have anything other than a glimpse, even having watched the space for a long time. It's not too far-fetched to think the supposed science Dr. Kahn is referring to is no better than what we find in hundreds of VA studies. And it leads me to wonder if the Keto versus Plant-based thing is one of those false-debates, well-orchestrated to keep people confused and enriching the proponents in the process. You probably have the best handle on a practical diet from what I've read, so I look forward to your thoughts on this video.
When he says "we've got it figured" that's a red flag lol
Please keep in mind that what I'm about to write is very speculative and is not intended as advice.
My thoughts on longevity and health is that lower amounts of meat and animal fat in the diet may lead to less risk for heart disease and stroke if the animal fat is not replaced with high LA vege oil. Not because of saturated fat or cholesterol but due to oxidised cholesterol present in cooked animal products which is possibly an important cause of arteriosclerosis. If one was to eat a raw meat diet then that might be different. The beans and rice diet with lesser amounts of animal products may be the best diet for longevity.
Although I haven't looked at extensive data I would tend to agree with him that people don't tend to follow very high animal product, low carb diets long term and if they do they could very well hurt themselves. Eskimos ate plenty of their food raw and they will have some level of genetic adaption to such an extreme diet that we don't have. It seems there were quite a few long lived Icelanders though in the middle ages, they had a lot of raw dairy and minimal infectious disease.
I consume plenty of animal protein because I am more concerned with muscle mass and my current state of health than longevity and because my gut struggles with lots of legumes and whole grains. I have recently made an effort to consume more whole grains, nuts and legumes which provide plant based protein.
Oxidized linoleic acid is an important factor in heart disease too so it isn't about just going plant based. Basically frying is bad for the heart but frying in palm or coconut oil will be the least damaging for the heart.
Eggs, fish, chicken and meat supply (as a whole) choline, zinc, iodine, selenium, DHA, B12 and other micronutrients that are more readily obtained from animal products. We are omnivores after all and I think going vegan is detrimental due to lack of availability of these micronutrients.
Saturated fat and monounsaturated fat along with glucose are the cleanest and best fuels for the body. So coconut oil, palm oil, olive oil and high oleic sunflower oil are probably pretty good since they have less Omega 6 than other plant based oils but also lack oxidized cholesterol which is present in lard and beef tallow. In Eastern Europe raw salted pork fat is consumed by many, this will also be low in oxidized cholesterol. Raw full fat dairy products are devoid of oxidized cholesterol but unfortunately they are full of VA. Frying bacon or frying food in lard or tallow generates significant amounts of oxidized cholesterol. How important this is isn't known. Deep fried food is very bad from an oxidized cholesterol standpoint if animal fat is used. From a practical perspective if someone asked me for advice I would say avoid all deep fried food and consume fried food in moderation. I don't think there is enough evidence to avoid traditional fats like lard and tallow for baking and frying with.
We know that plant foods contain many different types of toxins or pre toxins like pectin and so it is all a big balancing act in my opinion. Humans have selected a diet for advantages that don't include concerns about longevity past reproduction so it makes it quite difficult to try to find an optimal diet.
Veganism "plant based eating" is being pushed by the elites possibly more for reducing the land used for agricultural purposes. Their plan is to depopulate rural areas and have everyone living in cities. They will then rewild rural areas. The confiscation of large ranches in rural america in order to turn them into conservation areas is a side effect of this agenda also. A friend of mine also thinks the promotion of veganism is a symbolic act as well, they see us as cattle (goyim) and so we should eat herbivorously like cattle too.
Given what is now known about linoleic acid it would seem like a good idea to limit nut consumption however nuts were eaten in significant amounts in the past.
"In whatever category of foodstuffs contemporary students of natural science felt inclined to place nuts, it must be observed that they played an enormous role in the medieval diet. Walnuts, filberts (hazelnuts), pistachios, chestnuts, pine-nuts and almonds were kept on hand in the larger kitchens. Almonds, in particular, seem to constitute the sine qua non of medieval cookery: there is perhaps no one common ingredient in the dishes of the day than almonds, in one form or the other. Usually ground very finely in a mortar, mixed with a liquid and then strained, almonds yielded a so-called almond milk whose culinary uses appear to be close to infinite in number."
Terence Scully, The Art of Cookery in the Middle Ages, p. 70.
"Description: The mongongo is a highly nutritious fruit and nut that constitutes the main staple in the diet of the !Kung Bushmen. Indeed, nuts represent over 1/3 of their total calories, and are available almost all year long."
@Tim - thanks for that wide-spectrum answer. This part is really interesting - "My thoughts on longevity and health is that lower amounts of meat and animal fat in the diet may lead to less risk for heart disease and stroke if the animal fat is not replaced with high LA vege oil. Not because of saturated fat or cholesterol but due to oxidised cholesterol present in cooked animal products which is possibly an important cause of arteriosclerosis."
It sounds like that would be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire. Guess it's time to find out more about oxidized cholesterol since I haven't been paying much attention to cholesterol, other than my numbers being a bit high on LDL and Total.
The picture at the bottom of the home page (the one with the pigs) could be a snide and condescending 'reveal' in plain sight. The Twitter below that pic is another 'red-flag', especially for anyone who understands the benefits of abstinence. I'm off to watch his long debate with Joe Rogan for more clues to the nature of this nutritional dialectic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULtqCBimr6U
Chris Kresser @ 1:03:00 mentions Beta-Carotene. It is fairly apparent, for all the hair-splitting, the vast majority of these studies, epidemiological or otherwise, are not controlling for VA or sub-clinical hypervitaminosis-a. How could they?
edit later: the debate is a slog but there are some interesting things like the chart Chris Kresser shows @ 2:32:44 which rings a retinol-bell. This TMAO molecule is being studied in relation to all kinds of inflammatory conditions that we have good reason to think are ultimately caused by the retinoids. Kresser is just using the rise in TMAO after cod and halibut consumption to undermine Dr Kahn's references and positions regarding saturated fats, but it's easy to think there's no reason either of them would be considering VA in their analysis of the evidence. I just read Tim's reply below about oxidized cholesterol, which thus far in the debate has not been mentioned. So that seems like a big faux pas in the embarrassing sense, since neither of them could be assumed to be unaware of Fred Kummerow's hypothesis and work.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130227151254.htm
This 98 yr old expert on heart disease says that it is oxidized cholesterol and oxidized fat (oxidized pufas) that cause heart disease.
If you search around you will find very convincing studies on it and studies where they list the amounts of oxidized cholesterol in different foods. Meats that are cooked before being preserved or frozen are high in it, deep fried animal fats are high in it, dried meats can be high I think. There are legends of people eating raw fermented dairy products with little meat such as Old Par and people in Eastern Europe and West Asia who live to be very old, it could be the lack of oxidized cholesterol in raw dairy that has this effect.
@Tim - thanks for the link. I mentioned in an edit above that Kummerow's work seems like it would be front-and-center, for all the hair-splitting Kresser and Kahn do in their debate. Even if they somehow didn't know about Kummerow, there's over 5,000 hits at PubMed on "oxidized cholesterol". It looks like a pretty complicated topic, like this one, hot off the press.
Biol Chem. 2020 Jan 6.
Cross-linking modifications of HDL apoproteins by oxidized phospholipids: Structural characterization, in vivo detection, and functional implications. PMID:31907281
Think I'll dive into the studies for a few days to see if there's any with a clear VA-toxicity link now that PubMed is back up. Grant's cholesterol numbers decreasing as they have along with VA-detox indicates there's probably a smoking-gun kind of study or two out there, even if the researchers don't know what they're really identifying. I can't recall what it is, but I wonder if Grant's cooking method has a part to play in it.
edit : now I'm thinking maybe Kresser and Kahn don't say the word "oxidized" since it's a given, assumed. I haven't listened to the last hour of the debate yet, but this snip from a 2020 study makes me think I'm way behind-the-curve on the subject. I pretty much ignored all the cholesterol razz-matazz after stuff I read about the Framinham study being debunked so many years ago. So, there's probably no way I didn't read the word "oxidized" along the way, but it didn't mean anything to me. Now it does, whether there's a VA-connection, or not.
"Atherosclerosis is a commonplace cardiovascular disease which affects most people in old age. While its causes are currently poorly understood, continuous study is being performed in order to elucidate both the pathogenesis and treatment of this insidious disease. Atherosclerosis is presently thought to be linked to several factors such as endothelial dysfunction, monocyte adhesion to the intima of the artery, and increased oxidative stress. Oxidized low-density lipoprotein (ox-LDL), colloquially known as the "bad cholesterol", is known to play a critical role in the previously mentioned atherosclerotic processes."
Duh!!
I've never seen ox-LDL referred to as "bad cholesterol", just LDL. Oxidized cholesterol is the true bad cholesterol, it hangs around in the bloodstream causing harm for much longer than oxidized omega 6.
I expect that it is a significant cause of heart disease but what should we do? Turn to eating raw meat? It just isn't something I think I will do. Oxidized cholesterol doesn't affect health afaik apart from causing damage to arteries. Should I eat raw animal products for the rest of my life to live a bit longer? In the future I anticipate that we will solve this problem by eliminating cooked food altogether. I'd say it isn't too far away where people are consuming some kind of shake which contains all macros and micros in the right proportions. That is the natural evolution of food for an advanced species.
Kresser is normally pretty good but at the end of the day he is just an acupuncturist or something and Kahn is a cardiologist. How often do doctors actually read medical journals? Neither are scientists and it wouldn't surprise me if both of them had not read one study about oxidized cholesterol.
Sally Fallon wrote in Nourishing Traditions about oxidized cholesterol being a problem in milk powder yet her bias didn't allow her to note that fried foods often have just as much. It's like Monte's methanol stuff, aspartame is poison due to the methanol content according to him yet fruit is fine. You can't pick and choose in science lol
Another cause of heart disease is SIBO. SIBO seems to be fueled by plant foods. Another reason why going plant based isn't a cure all for heart disease. From a practical perspective it may turn out that oxidized cholesterol isn't worth trying to eliminate from the diet. I hope that is the case, that is my bias lol
Deep-fried restaurant foods have always been poison to my gut for whatever reason.
Perhaps Rare is the middle ground. And gently cooked foods.
Cutting up meat into small chunks, and a quick little efficient cook of it, would also be sparing of wood for the fire.
Of course, I have also wondered if eating BBQ char is almost like taking charcoal! Our taste buds like a little bit, and I imagine it's always been a thing for humans to hang around the fire and stick their foods in 🙂