Quote from michele on July 2, 2021, 8:28 pm

@max-3  I promise I read your posts!  🙂 I really do like to keep an open mind and I enjoy intelligent debates - it's the reason I was able to get my health back.  I never pledged allegiance to anything and I always gave myself permission to change my mind (and still do).  I really don't care about being "right" - I am only sharing on this site because I had followed the low VA lifestyle for a bit of time, shared my story on this forum, spent money working with Dr. Smith (what a waste), and ultimately found a totally different path.  Perhaps my words will resonate with and help someone else.  Maybe they won't.  I definitely don't expect any praise from anyone here, trust me. 🙂

 

I didn't realize you wanted me to address your points, but I'll go ahead and do that.  I very much appreciate you taking the time to share your views, but nothing moved the needle for me whatsoever.  My personal belief is that we started hunting animals as we moved out of the tropics and into harsher climates because we couldn't find enough fruit/veg/nuts/seeds/etc. This obviously somehow coincides with fire and the need for warmth and the cooking of animal flesh. Tribal living was likely a necessity outside of our natural habitat, due to the need for shelter, manpower for hunting massive buffalo, starting fires etc. I don't get too crazy with theories and imagined scenarios here - at the end of the day, no one was alive back then and can prove exactly how or why we lived a certain way. I also believe that much of history/science etc is agenda driven and purposely deceptive and hiding the truth.

 

I also do not believe we are the only species that was not born with our own toolbox to obtain food. You mention the use of spears. I think we would agree that it would be next to impossible to kill a buffalo with your bare hands. Yes, we have brains and can create weapons, spears, etc. to hunt and kill animals. But I personally find this a slippery slope. Our brains also gave us the ability to design diving tanks and submarines - does this mean we should live underwater? Our brains gave us the ability to design pharma drugs like accutane - does that mean we should take them? Obviously I'm being extreme here, but I'm trying to prove a point. Personally, I think the human brain has gotten us into a lot of trouble. We are the only species that has no idea what to eat and spends hours on forums like these arguing over diet. 🙂 (I myself am clearly guilty of this as well.)  In any case, we WERE born with our own toolbox to obtain food - we have hands and nails to pick and peel fruit - no need to create any tools. 

 

As far as cats and dogs being our best friends and giving us meat that they have caught... well, I give you points for creativity as I haven't heard this argument before. I guess you've never been around other animals (pigs, cows, goats, etc) - all of which are so loving and can have the same connection with humans as dogs and cats do. Domesticated cats and dogs are NOT natural whatsoever (and they are also eating a totally unnatural diet), so their (subsequently) unnatural actions prove nothing to me.  I'm quite curious now - have you or would you ever eat anything that your dog/cat has brought to you?!

 

You say "in the wild you probably wouldn't even find enough fruit for one person"... have you ever been to the tropics?? I have, several times, and fruit is extremely abundant there. It's entirely possible. How do you think other frugivores survive?!  Some primates for example, live on a diet that is something like 90% fruit. If they can find enough fruit to survive, so can humans. Especially since humans likely need significantly less calories than say, a gorilla. You say "completely impossible" but ignore the fact that, humans aside, there are MANY frugivore species on this planet who are doing just fine finding enough fruit (so long as humans don't totally destroy the planet, but that's obviously another topic).

 

As far as fruitarians looking like they need protein... you are basing this on what... some youtube videos you've watched? With all due respect, this argument is so weak that I won't even waste time addressing it. As I mentioned in my last post, you can find healthy and unhealthy looking people on every diet under the sun.  

 

One real question - do you believe VA is toxic to all species?  Or just to humans?

 

 

Quote from Max on July 3, 2021, 4:27 am

@michele 

 

 

Quote from michele on July 2, 2021, 8:28 pm

 I'm quite curious now - have you or would you ever eat anything that your dog/cat has brought to you?!

Yes I would. Hunter-gatherers always hunt with ther dogs and share meat with them. You could watch the Hadza tribe on youtube. They need their dogs to hunt baboons and other animals. 

 

 

How do you think other frugivores survive?!  Some primates for example, live on a diet that is something like 90% fruit. 

The other primates have different colons and can ferment plant fibers to create fat.  Frugivores dont get most of the calories from sugar/carbs, they get it via fermentation of fibers. Humans have a much shorter large intestines, so we cant do it nearly as effective. Also like I said: The other primates do eat raw meat, they do hunt, they do eat a lot of insects for protein. They do that because it is natural for them and they dont follow a religion like veganism that surpresses their instincts. And they do all that while having a stomach ph of 4-6 while humans have stomach ph of 1-1,5 (like other carnivores and scavangers). It is very clear: The more acidic your stomach is, the more you are suited for eating meat. 

 

As far as fruitarians looking like they need protein... you are basing this on what... some youtube videos you've watched? 

Im basing it on my own experience with a fruitarian diet. And yes also on a lot of youtube videos, where I can see how others are doing on that diet, because I personally dont know anybody that is fruitarian.

 

You could watch this playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFF30jfTubU&list=PL9aky54RJ-BQ5bghFG-my5joeq3k59N8l

Most of the people featured there are raw vegans/fruitarians that dont believe we need protein or fat. 

 

Or even better watch some interviews with ex-fruitarians that almost died on that diet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RnZD-ZIIbc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSDJoKLWSkw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nyl17c2EdJ0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD-_E3OYNSI

 

 

 

One real question - do you believe VA is toxic to all species?  Or just to humans?

 

I believe VA in excess can be toxic to all species yes. Especially the animal form of vitamin A.

 

 

Quote from michele on July 3, 2021, 7:03 am

@max-3

Fiber, based on what I have studied, creates "spasms" in the small intestines to move food through our system (peristalsis).  I don't believe fiber plays a role in calorie absorption through fermentation as you suggest.  But admittedly, this is not something I've researched much.  I don't think modern medicine has even scratched the surface of a solid understanding of the human body, so I tend to not get too caught up in these kind of arguments (which I completely understand drives some science-minded people crazy).  I had a well-respected doctor, who received years of medical training, give me a very toxic drug which destroyed my body, so I have very little respect for the "science".  I choose to focus on my own instincts and what makes sense to me.  For the record, I'm not suppressing any instinct to eat insects or hunt animals because I am following a vegan "religion".  To be honest, I hate the term "raw vegan" as it implies an ethical stance which immediately puts most people on the defensive.  

I will say that the pH of the human stomach is one point that nagged at me early on when I made the switch from low VA to a fruit-based diet.  However, isn't it possible that the human body is simply attempting to overcompensate for an acidic diet?  The human body is pretty amazing in that it can withstand a lot of abuse up until a certain point.  Perhaps the low pH is not our natural set point, but rather an adaptation of sorts.  Not an adaptation that means we SHOULD be eating this way, but rather that we are able to tolerate it for a longer period of time.  Or perhaps stomach acid is dictated by the foods we eat and not the other way around.  Sort of a chicken/egg theory.  I would actually be really curious to know the stomach pH of a long-term fruitarian and if it is any different than the average human.  In any case, the other evidence in support of a fruit-based diet was overwhelming enough for me to not lose sleep over low stomach pH.

Those fruitarian videos... I've watched that guy sv3rige's channel.  And I will say, I find him quite interesting.  I do believe his way of eating is better than the way most carnivores/omnivores/keto/whatever people eat.  I've also seen videos of him consuming fruit for hydration.  🙂  His entire channel is designed to make fun of vegans, so of course his compilation of deteriorating fruitarians is going to be a bit more than biased.  In addition, the raw vegan community can admittedly get a little crazy.  Some take tons of herbs, do coffee enemas, live on juices for months of end, go on mushroom trips for spiritual awakenings...and a lot also have binges which they don't share on their YouTube videos.  None of this is healthy in my opinion, so I would expect the effects might show after some time.  I don't know them personally so I choose to not make any judgments about this lifestyle based on what I see on social media.  

Also, I do believe we need both protein and fat, just not the amounts that we have been conditioned to think we need.

Like you, I really can only speak from personal experience.  Should I begin to deteriorate like these YouTube fruitarians, I'll rethink my stance! 

 

 

Quote from lil chick on July 3, 2021, 8:21 am

I've said a lot of things I regret to people about diet but I feel pretty confident in this idea that I've learned from all the thrashing around.  I think the main thing we get from food is CALORIES.   That is why there will always be another new diet.  This is our strength, actually.  We are so frickin' adaptable that it's confusing!

Now, once we are getting enough calories the human body will do it's best to keep STASIS.

During stasis two things can eventually happen.  We can run low on certain needed nutrients.  Or we can become toxic.  If you avoid those two things, you will live an OK life until stasis is broken.

Once stasis has been interrupted, it is very challenging to become well again.  This is because the body will do backflips to avoid breaking stasis.  You will be surprised how bad things will get before stasis is broken.  An example of this is Grant's kidney disease.

Now, like other animals on earth, some of our genes might be micro-adapted to certain eco systems.  We might feel somewhat more at home with one diet or another.   It's kind of fun to follow that rabbit hole.

Once stasis is broken a person might need a targeted diet or other interventions temporarily to get well.  Unfortunately, lasting damage might have occurred and some healing might even be out of reach (but there is often hope).

The goal is really simple:  a non-toxic diet with the necessary nutrients (in non-toxic amounts). 

Quote from Max on July 3, 2021, 3:27 pm

@michele

Another problem that I have with fruit based diets is that they will destroy the teeth of most people REAL QUICK. Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEGdvXtzMI4

 

Why would our natural diet be so bad for our teeth. Makes no sense. And you wouldnt always find 100 percent ripe fruit in nature, so dont just say "oh they ate unripe fruit".

It also shows that the real frugivore species dont consume nearly as much sugar as human fruitarians, since they dont get teeth problems so quickly even without brushing their teeth 2-3 times a day. Why? They eat lots of greens and not as much fruit as you think. But humans would starve away if they would do the same, because they cant ferment the greens to fats.

 

Read this quote about gorillas: The process of bacterial fermentation serves as an energy harvest system for undigested material, rescuing energy that cannot be absorbed in the small bowel, and is used as a major energy source for some species. For example, lowland gorillas derive ~57% of their metabolisable energy from SCFAs (=SHORT CHAIN FATTY ACIDS).

The macronutrient profile of this diet would be as follows: 2.5% energy as fat, 24.3% protein, 15.8% available carbohydrate, with potentially 57.3% of metabolizable energy from short-chain fatty acids (SCFA) derived from colonic fermentation of fiber.

 

Yes, you read that right. Gorillas are on a high fat diet. They dont eat a high carb diet, because these man-made sugar bombs (=modern fruit) dont exist in nature.

 

Also humans suck in climbing trees compared to other apes.

Also lots of videos of babies eating meat, even raw meat by instinct. But they are disgusted by greens. (they do love fruit though)

Also no successful athletes on a raw vegan diet, which shows it clearly sucks for performance (also my experience). Why would it be our natural diet then?

Also watch what happens to kids that get raised on a raw vegan diet. It is really sad.

 

But like I said before, if it works for you more power to you. But the more I think about it and acutally wrote all this stuff down, Im pretty convinced it is not the way to for me and I also wouldnt recommend it to anyone.

I think it could be a good cleanse for a couple of months, but even then water fasting would be far more effective.

Meat is the most important food for humans in my opinion. And the few hunter gatherer tribes that still exist think the same.

 

 

 

Quote from Max on July 3, 2021, 3:33 pm

Quote from lil chick on July 3, 2021, 8:21 am

I've said a lot of things I regret to people about diet but I feel pretty confident in this idea that I've learned from all the thrashing around.  I think the main thing we get from food is CALORIES.   That is why there will always be another new diet.  This is our strength, actually.  We are so frickin' adaptable that it's confusing!

I completely agree and this is also another point against a fruit-based diet. It is really hard to get enough calories with fruit, but extremely easy with a meat-based diet. Kill one big mega fauna animal and you can feed your entire tribe for a month or more. And now try to get the same amount of calories from fruit in the wild...

One of the main reasons people on fruitarian diets get so sick is that they dont consume enough calories for months or even years. 

Calories are kinda important 😀

Quote from lil chick on July 4, 2021, 7:05 am

I was watching a video about an existing hunter gatherer tribe and the leader was asked "what is the meaning of life"?

He said the meaning of life is hunting baboons and gathering honey.  🙂

When pressed he pointed in the direction of tomorrows hunt, and spoke of it with great enthusiasm and excitement.

I think that most people who watch the video are expecting a spiritual lesson, but what they  get instead is a lesson on leadership.

Quote from lil chick on July 4, 2021, 7:19 am

The average male needs more calories than the average female, and has more muscle to keep rebuilding than the average woman.  In-active people might also eek out a longer stasis period on a diet with lower calories and no meat.

I am surprised how much effort goes into raising some foods.  For example, carrots are pretty high up on the difficulty list for me here.  I would wonder if I would ever gain as many calories from eating a carrot, as I would from growing a carrot.  And so many bunnies would have to die, LOL, for me to grow enough carrots for a family to eat them every day for a year.   Potatoes come a little closer to producing more calories than expended, and the critters that need to die are disgusting bugs rather than cute baby bunnies.

Meat, on the other hand, is a lot better than a carrot at growing itself.   I can turn out my chickens and they will spend the day seeking out bugs and vegetation (and tiny little rocks!) to support their own living.   They'll even try to save themselves from critters.

The two together (the mixed farm) do make a nice balanced system tho.

Our fruit trees produce very little because we don't spray.   Enough to produce a few pies and jams, but not enough to live on.  I imagine that organic methods are possible but probably, again, a lot of physical labor.   Lots of competition from the bug world there.  Birds are also an issue.

There are old poems about how pumpkins (which is a fruit after all) kept people alive in old  New England.  They are easy to grow, and keep all winter.   Pumpkins and their ilk are ultra-high in VA--worse than liver.   From the tone of the poems people weren't that keen on eating pumpkin.  Dried apples were also a survival food.

"I loathe, abhor, detest, despise,
Abominate dried-apple pies.
I like good bread, I like good meat,
Or anything that's fit to eat;
But of all poor grub beneath the skies,
The poorest is dried apple pies.
Give me the toothache, or sore eyes,
But don't give me dried apple pies.
The farmer takes his gnarliest fruit,
'Tis wormy, bitter, and hard, to boot;
He leaves the hulls to make us cough,
And don't take half the peeling off.
Then on a dirty cord 'tis strung
And in a garret window hung,
And there it serves as roost for flies,
Until it's made up into pies.
Tread on my corns, or tell me lies,
But don't pass me dried-apple pies."

Quote from michele on July 5, 2021, 6:59 am

@max-3

You are going to great lengths to attempt to prove that fruit is not our natural diet, yet you're fine eating tons of white rice following this low VA theory.  I'd love to see you harvest and process all of this white rice by hand...hardly natural.

I appreciate your views, but your links to YouTube videos don't do much for me.  But hey, it seems that our back and forth has further convinced you that you're on the right path, and that's really all that matters.  Gotta do what feels right to you.  Wish you all the best.