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NAD deficiency - is this a major issue for vA toxicity/detox?
Why would you need supplements to maintain youth and optimal health?
Quote from AlexM on February 22, 2023, 10:52 amI saw this video of Karen the other day and now she just seems and looks crazy to me, sort of like a crazy old cat lady. I know she is 65 but you would have thought she would look younger and better for her age, being a health advocate and following her own teachings everyday, which shows to me her protocol is probably not the key to optimal health.
Likely because her diet has too much PUFA, too much beta carotene (which I have now learnt acts like a PUFA), no saturated fat and no supplements which I think is a big mistake. She also has the view that one doesn’t need to eat organic if eating beans regularly which I think is kind of dumb and not true. I would be interested to see what her HTMA shows but I’m sure it will show some imbalances.
Not fully discrediting her though, I think it’s good she has raised awareness about the importance of soluble fiber and her protocol has seemed to help a lot of people fix their health conditions.
I also cant agree on all that Karen says. I dont think saturated fat is dangerous and also I do believe eating as clean as possible is a great thing, that is what I do. I buy everything organic or as good quality as I can.
But I do believe she is onto something really good with the soluble fiber thing and quitting stimulants.
She is a very busy lady, I cant even believe how much she accomplishes.. she is even into politics. Maybe she is burning her candle too fast ;). So in that way she really is fit! But on the other hand I think eating all the carotene veggies she do, is not a good idea at all. Maybe the soluble fiber has prevented her from getting sick from all the A vitamin.. who knows....
Quote from Tommy on February 22, 2023, 11:12 amWhy would you need supplements to maintain youth and optimal health?
@tommy Well I didn’t say that, you took two things I said at different parts and put them together.
In an ideal world we wouldn’t need supplements, but with all the chemicals, pesticides, heavy metals, drugs, vaccines, pathogens, excess PUFA and processed foods affecting our health and metabolisms most people would probably benefit from supplementing things they have deficiencies in and taking supplements that would help correct their faulty metabolism and possibly binders to help remove toxic things like excess heavy metals from their bodies.
If your metabolism was working correctly and you didn’t have toxicities then you would never develop this Vitamin A toxicity issue in the first place.
@alexm yeah I see vA toxicity as a marker of poor metabolic/detoxification in the body for most people. But I think there are some people who have just vastly overdone vA supplements/foods who have overwhelmed normal metabolism/detoxification. I have two categories - the overdoer group and the other issue group (although in reality people often a bit of both). For the latter just lowering vA is often not enough (although it needs to be done too) because the root cause reason for poor detoxification needs addressing as well.
I think there is much more to the PUFA story. I have so many thoughts about them. I plan on doing a write-up when I have more time and sort through a few more things.
Well PUFA shut down the thyroid and impair glucose metabolism, which is why sugar appears to be harmful. But really it’s the PUFA, inefficient metabolism and low thyroid ruining peoples’ sugar metabolism making it harmful. So I think sugar is harmful when one is regularly consuming PUFA or has inefficient metabolism, or has poor mineral and b vitamin status due to heavy metal toxicity, chemical exposure or pathogens which all affect negatively metabolism. But when one does have an efficient metabolism, low in stressors (check pic below) then sugar is helpful and not the bad guy.
Basically when we get older, have poor metabolism and low cellular energy we shift to burning/oxidising fat instead of sugar which is less efficient.
Quotes from Ray Peat: “Oxidation of sugar is metabolically efficient in many ways including sparing oxygen consumption”
“Glucose oxidation is efficient and suggests a low state of stress “
When NAD metabolism is impaired which is a key feature of most diseases we start converting glucose to lactic acid for energy which is much less efficient instead of oxidising glucose.
“The conversion of glucose to lactic acid provides some usable energy, but many times less than oxidation provides.”
“A lowered metabolic rate and energy production is a common feature of aging and most degenerative diseases. From the beginning of animals life sugars are the primary source of energy, and with maturation and aging there is a shift towards replacing sugar oxidation with fat oxidation”
To answer your question it says in this post at the bottom that sugar is more effective for pufa depletion so I don’t think it slows it down but just makes it more efficient and depletes it faster, but not in a more harmful way, it would be less harmful if glucose metabolism is working properly. The coconut oil helps displace the PUFA, it wouldn’t slow it down, RP recommends saturated fat in every meal to block PUFAs access to the mitochondria.
What I have read to detox PUFA safely and effectively we need sugar, some saturated fat, low pufa intake and low fat. In my experience though I’ve been higher fat with all the chocolate I was eating and that seems to be more effective than lower fat. Stearic acid is also said to be helpful for displacing PUFA from the cells. Supplements that help are niacinamide (non flush), Vit E, methylene blue.
I’m still new to Ray Peat’s ideas, I only started reading about them last month. So I’m no expert.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/sugar-is-better-for-pufa-depletion-than-starch.5921/
“The study looked at the effects of different carbs on PUFA status for animals fed saturated fat. Both starch and sucrose contributed to PUFA depletion, but only the sucrose group had lower levels of arachidonic acid (which is implicated in the pathology of diabetes).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4094517
"...After two wk, rats fed the sucrose/hydrogenated coconut oil diet developed some characteristic features of EFA deprivation: slower growth rate, decreases in linoleic and arachidonic acid of plasma phospholipids and an increase in n-9 eicosatrienoic acid of plasma phospholipids. When rats ate the starch/hydrogenated coconut oil diet, there was a similar decrease in linoleic acid of plasma phospholipids, but only a small effect on growth rate and no change in the arachidonic acid content of plasma phospholipids."
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@jaj I like your two categories - overdoers and other issue group - and your statement that people are often both. I would imagine that many of the overdoers started out as "other issue" people and then became overdoers via the extremist thinking that VA seems to cause in some people. Speaking from experience... 🙂
Quote from Jenny on February 22, 2023, 3:43 amSo interesting. I recently (foolishly) got into a debate on Karen Hurd’s page about PUFAs. She is one of the only people, whose opinion I respect, who is saying PUFA good and saturated fat bad. Some of the people there were of the mentality that if Karen says it then it’s correct. A dangerous mentality as some of us will know only too well. So much information that PUFA excess is harmful that I can’t agree with Karen on this one.
Yeah Karen is very pro-pufa and claim sfa causes dna damage when entering the mitochondria as it is stable and not reactive as mufa/pufa. I spent an hour or so checking out pubmed but didn't find anything of substance that made sense.
She also gor rid of her grey hair when quitting sfa and started eating a cup of nuts a day (might be the copper though, as copper is involved in pigmentation, but Grant also got rid of his grey so what id the common factor here?). She is very knowledgeable though, qith two degrees: dietician and master (or even phd) in I think biochemistry, but we all probably know by now a degree doesn't mean you know it all, and how could you if you don't know what to look for (like poison A). I have tipped her re: Grants work but she is probably too busy to care much about some theory. She believes firmly that soluble fibre solves everything and once you're healed and maintain health with half a cup of beans x3 a day, you will be fine. And how could she believe else, with 30 years of practical "proof"... Maybe pufa is horrible because of a malfunctioning body, or the gene factor (again)? I dunno, I don't trust any other oil but olive, and prefer fats from real foods not processed foods/isolation oils (whether it be olive, butter or cottonseed oil, and personally I would never eat cotton...)
I would love to see that discussion, is it on her homepage? Did you ask her to share studies to support her theory? I did ask to see her thesis on beans and binding capacity to toxins and she sent it willingly.
Quote from Liz on February 24, 2023, 11:20 pmQuote from Jenny on February 22, 2023, 3:43 amSo interesting. I recently (foolishly) got into a debate on Karen Hurd’s page about PUFAs. She is one of the only people, whose opinion I respect, who is saying PUFA good and saturated fat bad. Some of the people there were of the mentality that if Karen says it then it’s correct. A dangerous mentality as some of us will know only too well. So much information that PUFA excess is harmful that I can’t agree with Karen on this one.
Yeah Karen is very pro-pufa and claim sfa causes dna damage when entering the mitochondria as it is stable and not reactive as mufa/pufa. I spent an hour or so checking out pubmed but didn't find anything of substance that made sense.
She also gor rid of her grey hair when quitting sfa and started eating a cup of nuts a day (might be the copper though, as copper is involved in pigmentation, but Grant also got rid of his grey so what id the common factor here?). She is very knowledgeable though, qith two degrees: dietician and master (or even phd) in I think biochemistry, but we all probably know by now a degree doesn't mean you know it all, and how could you if you don't know what to look for (like poison A). I have tipped her re: Grants work but she is probably too busy to care much about some theory. She believes firmly that soluble fibre solves everything and once you're healed and maintain health with half a cup of beans x3 a day, you will be fine. And how could she believe else, with 30 years of practical "proof"... Maybe pufa is horrible because of a malfunctioning body, or the gene factor (again)? I dunno, I don't trust any other oil but olive, and prefer fats from real foods not processed foods/isolation oils (whether it be olive, butter or cottonseed oil, and personally I would never eat cotton...)
I would love to see that discussion, is it on her homepage? Did you ask her to share studies to support her theory? I did ask to see her thesis on beans and binding capacity to toxins and she sent it willingly.
I am so curious about what is the reason Karens and Grants hair turned back to original color.
I have some little white hair blended into my ash blond, and funny is that this fall they were almost gone, I thought it was the lactoferrin that did it, that I started last spring.. or the spelt bread I had included. I ate a mostly meat diet with some spelt bread here and there.
But then I started to eat tons of butter because I got the idea I should live mostly on fat, uh. Of course I had good amount of meat too because that I always have, but I had 100-200 grams of butter every day until beginning of this year when I started the bean thing and stopped the butter craze. And by then I had gotten way more white hairs, when I look very close.
Was it the butter? Or was it the stress. I had tons of stress this winter.
What if saturated fat can possibly cause premature hair graying. But if - why is that. Or is it only for certain individuals.
I am curious if my white hairs are going to go away, now that I stopped the crazy butter thing, and started eating beans every day..