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Nine Year Update
3 years ago in the ray peat forum you said Grant is following a nutritionally unsound diet and will eventually develop xerophthalmia.
Will everyone else copying his diet develop xerophthalmia?
When do you think this will happen?
Tommy's message could be interpreted as that I was badmouthing you on another forum. The only other forum I've posted about vitamin A on is the Ray Peat forum and I believe I have only ever respectfully disagreed with some of your ideas. As I've said many times I am very grateful to you for bringing my awareness to vitamin A which led to me researching it in depth. My health has improved tremendously since I lowered my vitamin A intake.
I can't recall what I said there but I have said consistently here that I don't think Grant's diet is ideal for those looking to improve a health condition.
"When do you think this will happen?"
Let me ask you, do you think it is normal for someone to get the exact symptoms of early xerophthalmia just from including some onion in the diet?
"Will everyone else copying his diet develop xerophthalmia?"
I do think that anyone following a diet of only grain, beans and lean beef will develop xerophthalmia eventually. How long it takes is dependent on the individual. Xerophthalmia in the third world normally occurs due to deficiencies of other nutrients like protein, zinc and riboflavin in my opinion. These deficiencies causing enzymatic pathways necessary for vitamin A transport and utilization to fail. In someone well nourished with these nutrients I would expect xerophthalmia to take longer to occur.
There was a case of a child in Australia where it started after about 7 years of following a vitamin A deficient diet from memory. This child was a fussy eater from a very young age and so he would have started with much less retinol in his liver than Grant had before he began eating his diet.
B12 stores can last 5 years in some people following a diet devoid of B12 and B12 is a water soluble vitamin.
Grant's very low serum retinol, lack of xeropthalmia, low vitamin C requirements and continually improving health is really interesting. His vitamin C levels may not be optimal but outwardly he is certainly showing signs of good vitamin C status. From my research I understand that retinoic acid increases collagen turnover everywhere in the body, in the gut, in the bones, in the skin. Vitamin C is mostly required for the hydroxylation of amino acids needed for collagen production so his vitamin C requirements may be significantly lower than normal.
A significant % of endogenous oxalate production in the body occurs from collagen turnover and surplus vitamin C intake so Grant's endogenous oxalate production may be significantly lower than the average person's. Oxalate is probably the most important stressor of kidney function. Secondly, because elevated retinoic acid levels may be a key driver of gut dysfunction and gut dysfunction dramatically increases dietary oxalate absorption he may be absorbing little oxalate from his diet. Thirdly, elevated retinoic acid levels inhibit enzyme function and interfere with our physiology in many ways including B vitamin metabolism. When this occurs endogenous oxalate production increases. So he may have reduced oxalate production from that perspective as well.
All of this suggests to me that a very low vitamin A diet may be helpful to certain health conditions and that a low vitamin A diet may be best for many people. However, it's a fact that both vitamin A and vitamin C are essential to human physiology.
RE: Let me ask you, do you think it is normal for someone to get the exact symptoms of early xerophthalmia just from including some onion in the diet?
It does not matter what you think is normal or not normal. Because, that’s exactly what did happen. Just as importantly the condition quickly reversed when I stopped including the onions.
Science is about objectively seeing and reporting what happens in the real world. It’s not about pushing our own preconceived notions and beliefs.
RE: However, it's a fact that both vitamin A and vitamin C are essential to human physiology.
Nope, sorry, it’s no longer a fact. It’s a myth.
RE: For Grant I think that he is so deep into this "vit A is just a poison" that he doesn't want to admit any possibility that vit A is not a poison in ideal scenario that it is vitamin,
Not at all. I’m just looking at and seeing the facts. Something you are apparently completely unwilling to do. And, the “it’s a vitamin” claim is now a complete joke! Please see my latest update.
RE: Arbitrarily spreading the idea that vitamin A is not a vitamin but a toxin to people at all stages of life including pregnant women, what could possibly go wrong?
It’s hardly arbitrary. I’ve provided a ton of evidence. And, based on the real world evidence, absolutely nothing will go wrong!
A scientific fact is that the lowest rates of birth defects in the world are in regions with endemic “vA deficiency”. Same here, there have been a few mothers here following a very low vA diet, and they’ve had perfectly healthy babies while doing so. That’s called a fact.
But, we already know what actually does go wrong with vitamin A supplementation.
- Significantly increased rates of birth defects (like 2X)
- Significantly increased rates of childhood deaths (like 17X)
- Bulging fontanelle (inflammation on the brain)
- xerophthalmia
If you want to claim to be scientifically minded, then it’s time to face reality, regardless of how much you don’t want to. I mean seriously, just go for a long walk, and really THINK about it.
@ggenereux2014 I don't understand how you can feel comfortable in summer heat if you don't sweat? It doesn't make any sense.. The body is designed to use sweat to cool itself.. Lack of sweat is the main symptom of very slow metabolism and vice versa people with fast metabolism sweat easily.. I think that there is happening some serious adaptation to whatever is going on in your body. Nevertheless it is interesting experiment. It would be cool if we could see more extensive blood work. But I understand that it is expensive in your country..
Wow, I did not know that...
Quote from Jiří on August 21, 2023, 8:45 am@ggenereux2014 I don't understand how you can feel comfortable in summer heat if you don't sweat? It doesn't make any sense.. The body is designed to use sweat to cool itself.. Lack of sweat is the main symptom of very slow metabolism and vice versa people with fast metabolism sweat easily.. I think that there is happening some serious adaptation to whatever is going on in your body. Nevertheless it is interesting experiment. It would be cool if we could see more extensive blood work. But I understand that it is expensive in your country..
Well, I do still sweat sometimes. Let me try to clarify it.
If I workout medium hard in the gym for one hour at room temp, I don’t sweat, like very close to not at all. It’s not that there is something wrong, I just find my body temp remains very comfortable, does not increase much, and I therefore don’t need to sweat. Maybe I don’t work out hard enough?
Pretty much the same goes for cycling, even in sunny weather because of the self-generated breeze I remain cool and don’t sweat..
But, if I sit out in the hot sun for say ~ 30 minutes, then I’ll start to sweat, but nothing too excessive.
On a somewhat related topic, I’ve not used deodorant, even once, in the last nine years. A few months before starting on this experiment the skin of my underarms disintegrated into what can be best described as a human hamburger. It would have been insane to use deodorant in that condition. Since then I’ve not used it, and seem to be just fine.
I'll do more extensive blood work for my 10 year update.
@ggenereux2014 you can measure your body temperature (in the mouth under the tongue). It should be at least 36.5C in the morning before you stand up and after after food it should increase to 36.6-37 C. That is very healthy metabolism. But a lot of people have much lower BT due to slow metabolism...
Contrary to Grant's experience, I sweat very easily. My apartment heats up quickly in the summer because it is on the top floor. My T-shirt is soaking wet when I hang out in the living room – doing nothing. In the winter, I freeze easily and find the cold unbearable. The most comfortable weather is in the spring, not too cold, not too hot. But I prefer the heat to the cold of winter. Sweat it all out, sweat it all out! I think to myself.
I'm still very vitamin A toxic. So all this to say that I definitely see a connection between vitamin A toxicity, depletion, and body temperature control.
Had a blast reading the 9 year update, but I have a slight correction to make. It's "modulate gene expression" as regulate is reserved for "regulate immune response". I'd be remiss if I didn't mention "act as signaling molecule". Of course, these are just the placeholder excuses used to justify something being sold as supplements, since who is going to fund a study exploring toxicity. Can't sell people poison.
Looking forward to the next project. Here's me hoping it tackles alkenes/arenes. I've been wondering for some time now if C=C are the problem or if it's more complicated than that.
Quote from Jiří on August 21, 2023, 8:45 am@ggenereux2014 I don't understand how you can feel comfortable in summer heat if you don't sweat? It doesn't make any sense.. The body is designed to use sweat to cool itself.. Lack of sweat is the main symptom of very slow metabolism and vice versa people with fast metabolism sweat easily.. I think that there is happening some serious adaptation to whatever is going on in your body. Nevertheless it is interesting experiment. It would be cool if we could see more extensive blood work. But I understand that it is expensive in your country..
Not necessarily true , I have a body temp of around 36.7 normally and during evening and after I eat it goes 37 C sometimes beyond.
I have a very fast metabolism and I don't sweat a lot . I can handle heat and cold well . Also , I don't know where co relation between the idea of not gaining weight easily i.e. fast metabolism and good health came from .
Retaining muscle mass and gaining some weight i.e what we call as slow metabolism in science could very well be form of an efficient metabolism . Think about it from an evolutionary perspective , I wouldn't survive longer in the wild . I will have to eat constantly to survive where as a person with "slower metabolism " would just do fine