Quote from lil chick on August 15, 2019, 6:29 am

Hi Sarabeth!

Although maybe the convo has switched away from amines, here is my theory about them, (from observing my body)

In a nutshell, where VA is, histamines are

I'm going to guess that when A is mobilized as a defense (say a bug bite), that histamines are part of that defensive strategy. 

Histamines get you scratching, it gets your mucus flowing, your eyes watering, your lungs sneezing etc. 

VA helps kill things off, and histamines help expel things (possibly including used-up VA.)

Limiting histamines is something I've tried and it only goes so far.  Ingesting them adds to your load.  I can see that.

But limiting histamine ingestion isn't going to get you to stop using them/making histamines

And I wonder if, when the body is forced to start storing VA all around the body... if histamines also start hovering around those areas.

Quote from lil chick on August 15, 2019, 6:45 am

Regarding formulating a food strategy, have you ever thought of just implementing Grant's ultra simplified beef/rice basic menu.  Fill that slow cooker up with meat and have it ready to go 24/7.  Rice cooks up fast, so make it fresh.

And then a few "something elses" (since I don't think your kids do beans?) 

My personal faves are the basic white veg/fruit: onions, cabbage, apples, pears, cauliflower

My guess is you might want to do 4 rice/meat meals a day until they start to level off.  It appears that many go through a period when they are hungry all the time, and then that calms down.  I bet it would be worse for children.

My guess is that children will grow into their A levels and overcome things much faster than old me has.

I think at that point I'd probably add an egg a day or some goat milk (say, 1 cup).  I think tradition calls for these kinds of foods in growth.

Quote from Mokus on August 15, 2019, 7:09 pm

Sarabeth  Another thought that may help is to check mouth breathing. I found the bedwetting stopped here when we did the myobrace early orthodontics. It helps with mouth breathing. Of course there are other ways to help. I suspect the VA is also linked as it effects the pelvic floor. 

Lilchick goats milk is not good for low VA diet. 

 

Quote from Sarabeth on August 16, 2019, 8:07 pm

Thanks so much, everyone. We're still traveling so cooking has just been one of those Fun Improvisational Exercises...but we're going to try cutting down on oxalates (nuts, dates, and a couple veggies were the few things I found that overlapped with those lists). I'll update how it goes. 🙂

(That's interesting that you mention mouth-breathing, Mokus, because all of my older kids are currently doing functional orthodontics and myo-type exercises, and my bedwetter is having the hardest time with mouth "posture" and is also the one suffering with severely receding gums. I'm going to give it six moths on the low-A/and now low-oxalate diet to see if it helps the gums and the bedwetting...)

Lilchick, as soon as I get to my family's house, we'll try for more of a slow-cooker meat-available menu (meanwhile I'm sending my eldest off to summer camp (serves organic but vegetarian food!) with a bag full of beef jerky and organic chicken and a list of Low A possibilities...not sure how it will go but it's time for him to get a chance to do Kid Stuff finally!)...Meanwhile I'm just trying to feed them a LOT and do a little sightseeing in between!

Thanks again for all the thoughts,

Sarabeth

Quote from lil chick on August 17, 2019, 3:21 pm

Mokus, I certainly get that goat's milk isn't low VA, but I do worry to keep rapidly-growing small children on low VA for too long.  If you ask me, that is again signing up to be a guinea pig.  I was saying that once they get some progress made, that it would be my choice to add back a small amount of dairy or egg, and it would be my goal to still keep them under the RDA for vit A. 

This doesn't have to be an all-or-nothing game.  🙂

Quote from Mokus on August 17, 2019, 11:00 pm

Lilchick yes I agree that each family makes their choices with what they introduce back in. I am at 10 months now and pondering what I would choose to reintroduce as sometimes foods. 

Quote from Sarabeth on October 1, 2019, 3:30 pm

Three months ago today, we started this diet, so here's an update. 🙂

I am officially in this for the duration, although it's hard to know what "the duration" means! Do we eat this way indefinitely? Do we add back in more veggies or eggs/dairy for the kids only, or for all of us? When? Do we continue our Walsh protocol zinc/B6, or begin to wean off of it? Lots more questions than answers at this point, but some of us are showing significant improvements.

My formerly anorexic child has experienced the best six weeks of this child's life, behavior- and eating-wise. I have only had to feed  a handful of times during this period (which is a serious a record - we've spent months and years feeding, as this child has struggled since birth with all kinds of disordered eating). Only the parent of an eating-disordered child can appreciate what it means to have experienced six consecutive weeks of this child often asking for seconds (!!!!!), and not coming to the table crying due to being offered food... My life is truly better every day, even if this were the only improvement we noticed on this diet!

Two of my kids and I compared our toenails the other day, and found that we ALL have a ridge (horizonal) which coincides with us beginning the Low A diet in July. Under the ridge is nice, strong, clean nails; on top is the old rough, brittle, and unpleasantly yellow nails that we've all had for years.

My face is clearer than it's been in months, and I'm hoping that it will mostly get better from here! One can always hope, right?? I used to have lovely skin, many years ago...

As of yesterday, I have officially had an entire menstrual cycle during which I did NOT experience either a 1-3 day headache, intense or even moderate cramps, or a mood crash or dip during ovulation or prior to my period. This is definitely, definitely a good thing! If you are familiar with the term body image dysphoria, then you might also recognize the peace that can come when one does NOT experience major Distorted Body Image Moments during a month. I have appreciated this. My energy is good, my brain is good, and I'm just feeling...good! It is hard to argue with this, although I wish I understood it better! I mostly go around feeling like a space alien because it is HARD to explain this latest development of crazy-eating, even with our crazy-eating history.

Other interesting symptoms: all four of my kids currently have sort of orange "mask"-looking skin on the insides of their elbows...but instead of eczema, the dark patches are peeling off, from the center of the elbow-pits on outward, making everyone pale in the inner elbows! It's very distinctive, and while they report a little itching, it's painless. One of my children reports fewer tics. We have had moderate improvements with bedwetting for the child who's doing lower oxalate combined with low-A. It's not miraculous, but we're doing laundry 2-3x week instead of 7x. I have noticed less urinary frequency myself. A few of my kids have noted burning pee at times.

My one child who has had behavioral meltdowns that correlate with increases in diarrhea and extremely poor digestion...has had mostly normal poops without the aid of prebiotic/probiotic for the first time EVER. Plus, almost no tantrums. This is a major leap!

We are eating mostly the same as what I posted earlier, except now that we're not on a camping trip, I make my gluten-free sourdough bread a bit more often, and we're definitely eating fewer dates/nuts. Cauliflower and cabbage and beef and white rice...

I am very tempted to try to make gluten sourdough. We haven't eaten this in ten years.

And..I forgot to mention that my husband has noticed pretty much nothing, except slight variations in his less-than-wonderful digestion. Not good variations - just variations.

Any suggestions on posts to read to catch up, or any advice? I plan to read more of your posts on this forum soon, in between our fall homeschooling schedule and starting my choir on Friday.

Thanks for reading!

Sarabeth

Quote from lil chick on October 1, 2019, 4:42 pm

Have you ever heard of https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/acanthosis-nigricans/

I've noted the beginnings of that darkening in the folds of the body... in myself and family members.  I also get a similar thing sometimes (on my neck) when a tan wears off.  I bet it is used up vitamin a.  You'd think someone would have tested it for that, and it is now time!  Now really, scientists, please go and test it for used up vit A?  Please?

Your monthly headaches sound so much like mine were! 

I bet my "need" for raw milk is similar to your b6 supp reliance,  (b6 is in raw dairy fat).  I suppose that you could eventually try a raw dairy fat product out on your fam (in small amounts).  I seem to need less than a cup of raw milk a day to keep my arm nerves in good health.  Also, hopefully both of our b6 needs will diminish with healing?

Interesting that your protocol also calls for zinc.  Two of my older loved ones (that appear to have some trouble with A as I do) have aneurisms.   The doc has said this might be "genetic".   Aneurisms are linked with low zinc.  I don't really see why they would be low on zinc, because they eat a lot of meat.  Aneurisms happen when the elasticity of the blood vessel isn't good.  Which of course makes you think about vit A and how it affects the "epidermis" of everything.

I'm not up to speed on the role zinc has to play in the high VA process, perhaps someone else can elucidate.

Quote from lil chick on October 1, 2019, 5:04 pm

OK I see by searching and googling that zinc is used to make the retinol binding protein.  Interesting.

So, ok, I remember reading a study where they gave turkeys a zinc-free feed and all the turkeys died of aneurisms.

Aha.  So, I wonder if the turkeys couldn't make RBP on the deficient feed.  And so their blood vessels lost elasticity because of inflammation from VA.