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puddleduck’s progress (CFS symptoms)
I agree and I want to reiterate that I do not see value in following a vegan low fat diet but if it can improve certain health conditions it's worth trying to understand why. I think it has a lot to do with more vitamin C and less vitamin A.
Re the 1995 study, fair enough. 4-oxo-retinoic acid is not all-trans-retinoic acid or 9-cis retinoic acid which are the hormone like metabolites that bind to retinoid receptors but it may still have a significant ability to affect genetic expression. But how much is actually produced in someone consuming a standard diet?
Re the lycopene quote, it depends if someone has Hypervitaminosis A or not. If they do beta carotene will probably be more toxic than lycopene. If they don't then it's up for debate.
Interesting quote about lutein.
Quote from tim on September 12, 2023, 10:39 pmI agree and I want to reiterate that I do not see value in following a vegan low fat diet but if it can improve certain health conditions it's worth trying to understand why. I think it has a lot to do with more vitamin C and less vitamin A.
Re the 1995 study, fair enough. 4-oxo-retinoic acid is not all-trans-retinoic acid or 9-cis retinoic acid which are the hormone like metabolites that bind to retinoid receptors but it may still have a significant ability to affect genetic expression. But how much is actually produced in someone consuming a standard diet?
Re the lycopene quote, it depends if someone has Hypervitaminosis A or not. If they do beta carotene will probably be more toxic than lycopene. If they don't then it's up for debate.
Interesting quote about lutein.
I can say I react badly to lycopene after having experienced carotenemia. I was great with all foods before that, of course.
by the way, I wanted to thank you for reminding me of the idea to separate beta-carotene foods from other meals, especially ones containing fats. I ate half a honeydew melon for breakfast a couple days ago (not very high in carotenoids but still) and nothing else. I was able to hit the gym later and it felt almost great! However, eating even low carotene foods with small amounts of fat will make me feel tired and toxic.
The thing I also try to not to forget about is the bile flow. Eating enough protein and salt, not overeating and giving the digestion a rest.
I haven't consistently taken vitamin C but I'm now coming around to the idea of continuously supplementing with it as long as one has Hypervitaminosis A. I think Hypovitaminosis C and Hypervitaminosis A go hand in hand.
What dosage do you think is safe? Some vitamin C is partially converted to oxolate, and I suspect that the higher the intake of vitamin C, the higher the production of oxolate. It's probably not a good idea to take mega doses of vitamin C in the 10g to 20g range over a long period of time. I take 500mg before bed. Vitamin C also helps to reduce histamine, which increases sleepiness.
Yeah to minimise oxalate I currently think about 700mg spread out over the course of a day is about right.
With histamine I think it's more that when the serum ascorbic acid level drops due to Hypervitaminosis A that histamine levels rise.
I do eat some fruit. The problem is is that the amount of vitamin C we get from food gets rapidly depleted by Hypervitaminosis A. Vitamin C supplementation can ameliorate the chronic Hypovitaminosis C seen during Hypervitaminosis A. Chronic Hypovitaminosis C negatively affects bile production as well as Phase I and II liver detox. Poor bile production can mean more microbially produced beta glucuronidase in the gut which deconjugates glucuronidated retinoic acid preventing excretion.
I don't see a problem with regular vitamin C tablets which are normally a mix of L-ascorbate and L-ascorbic acid. I think it's best to spread the intake out through the day and away from meals where possible to minimise increased iron absorption.