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Questions on Probiotic and Supplement Studies
Hey I know there are some smart people in here, I would be grateful for your thoughts on these probiotics and studies as I can’t work out if the effects demonstrated are good or bad.
- Bacillus Indicus HU36™
“Produces carotenoids: lycopene, astaxanthin, beta-carotene, and lutein. Produces quinols and vitamins”
This probiotic strain interestingly produces carotenoids, I was wondering do you think it would still cause the same issues for Vit A toxic people as foods would, if the body is producing them naturally possibly there might be a different effect/mechanism compared to Vit A foods consumption?
I do remember a gut test I did a couple of years ago showed I was low in Bacillus (which is different to lactobacillus). Bacillus has shown to be effective against many different pathogens, improved immune function and lipid metabolism, dopamine synthesis.
2. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31571251/
“Probiotic Lactobacillus rhamnosus GG Prevents Liver Fibrosis Through Inhibiting Hepatic Bile Acid Synthesis and Enhancing Bile Acid Excretion in Mice”
^This is a different completely probiotic species to the previous one, but I can’t work out from this study if it’s good or bad. The study makes out that the above effect is a good thing. But I was wondering if inhibiting hepatic bile acid synthesis is a bad thing in the long term or not? The enhanced bile acid excretion sounds like a good thing.
3. Here’s another interesting one I’ve found two studies on EGCG which say opposite things
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6350933/
“The intestinal bile acid content was significantly decreased by EGCG, while fecal excretion of bile acids, cholesterol and total lipids were increased.
Conclusion:
EGCG decreases bile acid reabsorption, results in lower intestinal bile acid levels, which further decreased the absorption of lipids. These actions contribute to the alleviation of metabolic abnormalities and fatty liver disease caused by the high-fat diet.”
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0300483X12003745
“This study shows ability of EGCG to raise plasma bile acid concentrations, mainly through Cyp7a1 upregulation, and to decrease bile production through reduction in Mrp2-mediated bile acid-independent bile flow. In conclusion, our data demonstrate that under certain conditions EGCG may induce cholestasis.”
What do you think about these ^ Is EGCG a good or a bad thing for bile and the liver? I was already aware that EGCG can cause liver injury at high doses but am curious about your thoughts on these studies.
Thanks
Bacillus indicus is in MegaSporeBiotic (you might already know this). When I discovered it produced carotenoids, I tried to figure out how much it might be producing because I was taking MegaSporeBiotic for a while and it's hard to know how long those bacteria persist in your intestines. I never found any quantification of the carotenoids produced. My best guess is that it doesn't produce a meaningful amount and they were using that trait as a marketing point. I think MegaSporeBiotic is probably one of the better probiotics out there, despite that strain.
Personally, I don't think we know anywhere near enough of about the gut biome to know whether individual strains of probiotics do anything useful. I wouldn't waste my time and money on individual strains of Lactobacillus or Bifidobacteria, although complexes with very high CFUs might do something for you.
And personally, I think any plant compound is going to have a net negative effect on the liver in the long run. As medicine in the short term? Sure. If you know what you're doing. I wouldn't take plant-derived polyphenols intentionally unless it's a very short-term targeted therapy. Probably not going to hurt yourself much by playing around with it for a week or so.
Ok thanks, yeah the MegaSporebiotic was the one where I got the info about the carotenoid producing strain. I may give it a try, I used it once in the past a couple of years ago. I have heard that bacillus probiotics can cause issues for some people when it overgrows the rest of the normal flora and lowers Lactobacillus levels.
You’re right the individual strains of lactobacillus and bifdo never did much at all for me but I have been taking this high CFU bifdo and lactobacillus complex which works really well and has good effects on me. https://www.customprobiotics.com/custom-probiotics-adult-formula-cp-1.htm
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I saw this post on RP forum about this Mutaflor probiotic which is surprisingly an E Coli strain:
“Mutaflor: It is actually an E. Coli strain discovered in the early 20th century, and found to help with a variety of digestive problems.
In doing research on it, there are many accounts of people with UC, SIBO, IBS, and CFS that claim this strain was the only probiotic that ever actually did anything for their symptoms.
I believe it works similar to other antibiotic bacteria strains, killing off pathogenic bacteria.
Interesting thing is lactobacillus seems to kill it off. I know there have been some haidut posts on the possible deleterious effects of too much lactobacillus. CFS people tend to react very poorly to lactobacillus as well.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4917610/
I took Mutaflor, 1 pill 3x per day. I noticed my sleep was improving. I could go to bed around 9, maybe fall asleep within 30 minutes, and sleep in until...7! Holy sheit I haven't slept like that since I was a teenager. This good sleep crept up on me, slowly improving over a few nights”
@orion, my sleep has improved drastically since I quit coffee and all stimulants 2 weeks ago, and started eating lots of black beans throughout the day. I cant even believe how sweet my sleep is now, and my dreams. Wonderful vivid dreams. Amazing 🙂 🙂
I am feeling so relaxed so much better than before.
(I also do at least 600 grams of beef or lamb / day, and some days also eggs. A little low vitamin A veg and some spelt some days, some wine here and there just small amounts, not every day, and I have cheated a little some days with home made ice cream but my sleep was still amazing)
Maybe the soluble fiber in the beans do something really good to my gut, in addition to absence of stimulants. I also take lactoferrin most days, I have since last spring.
@inger that is great news, getting good sleep is so important!
Unfortunately for me I stopped beans in Sept, they quickly turned on me and couldn't digest then anymore without issue, I was doing similar to you, using them throughout the day for a couple years on low VA. I am hoping that using eggs to get bioavil choline will help get my digestion back on track.
Quote from Orion on February 21, 2023, 11:30 am@inger that is great news, getting good sleep is so important!
Unfortunately for me I stopped beans in Sept, they quickly turned on me and couldn't digest then anymore without issue, I was doing similar to you, using them throughout the day for a couple years on low VA. I am hoping that using eggs to get bioavil choline will help get my digestion back on track.
Thats so strange really... Was anything else changing in your life, diet, environment etc before the beans started to make troubles? And did you try to use psyllium husk instead or did that give you troubles too....