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Retinol in Casein bypassing liver
RE: Grant, it's hard to reconcile that you think all autoimmune diseases are caused by Vitamin A poisoning and can be cured by eliminating Vitamin A, when Dr. Coimbra believes that all autoimmune diseases can be cured by high dose Vitamin D (known as the Coimbra protocol). What are your thoughts on this?
I don’t want to get into debates. But, I think if anyone carefully reads my ebooks, it will be clear that the autoimmune diseases are a poisoning, not a deficiency.
Additionally, let’s consider the real-world evidence on it. Millions of people have been supplementing with vitamin D for a very long time now. Then, ask how many of them have cured themselves of their autoimmune diseases by doing so?
Grant
Quote from ggenereux on March 20, 2019, 5:18 pmOK, I'll try to check it out when I have a bit more time. Last I was reading it, (page 50ish) it was sounding like a rather heated debate. I don’t think debates are very useful.
Yeah, it's become a very cumbersome thread and, while I am following it, I tend to skip over a lot. We're trying to start another thread with only contributions of people trying/wanting to try the diet, but unfortunately the naysayers follow us there. I don't engage with them, for the reason you say, but others do :/
@ggenereux
Quote from ggenereux on March 23, 2019, 5:23 pmI don’t want to get into debates. But, I think if anyone carefully reads my ebooks, it will be clear that the autoimmune diseases are a poisoning, not a deficiency.
Grant, I have tried to comment a couple of times on the blog itself but it seems my comments got lost in moderation. So let me just briefly say that I am completely convinced by your argument and think you have made the greatest discovery in public health ever. You should be awarded the Nobel prize and lauded for your genius. Unfortunately, the world being the way it is, you are likely to be studiously ignored and eventually ridiculed and disgraced. I hope I am proved wrong on that score.
I have a question about so-called "vitamin free" casein. I came across a study from 1999 where they fed some rats a vitamin A "deficient" diet and for other rats they supplemented retinoic acid. What was surprising is that the rats who received the retinoic acid supplement did better on the particular outcomes they were measuring compared to those on the "deficiency" diet. Here is a link to the study: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/70/4/502/4729088
(BTW I got to that study via this one, which I got to via this one on "The Neurobiology of Retinoic Acid in Affective Disorders."
So one question I have is: how do you make sense of their findings in light of what we know about retinoic acid? And I don't mean that in a challenging or debating way. I am genuinely puzzled and would love the hear your perspective in light of your knowledge and wisdom on this topic.
The second question I have (with similar intent) is this: the diet they fed the rats in this study is from Envigo/Teklad. It does not use lard, but it does use casein. However, this casein is supposed to be "vitamin-free." Here is a fact sheet on this company's vitamin-A deficient rodent diet and their "vitamin-free" casein. Note that this is not the same ID number as the one given in the paper. I could not get any information about the one identified in the paper and am waiting for a response from the company about it. But I assume its similar to this one:
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/86143.pdf
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/ca.160040-vft-casein.pdf
One thing that jumped out at me from the casein info sheet is that the "vitamin-free" casein has a yellow-orange color, which is similar to the color of powdered retinoic acid. Another is that the fact sheet on the casein doesn't include numbers for vitamin A or retinoic Acid. I went back and read the deficiency diet chapter in your PfP book, but I was not able to see (or understand) a clear explanation as for why the method used to extract retinol from casein (using heat and ethanol) doesn't work. I have written to the company asking them for more information on the vitamin A / retinoic acid content of their casein. So far no answer. Any light you could shed on these matters would be most appreciated.
Quote from Josh on March 27, 2019, 3:35 amI went back and read the deficiency diet chapter in your PfP book, but I was not able to see (or understand) a clear explanation as for why the method used to extract retinol from casein (using heat and ethanol) doesn't work.
Since heat changes(oxidizes) the retinol to retinoic acid, so now the casein contains RA? Could be the same flaw from the 1920s I assume.
Quote from Orion on March 27, 2019, 8:12 am
Since heat changes(oxidizes) the retinol to retinoic acid, so now the casein contains RA? Could be the same flaw from the 1920s I assume.
Yes, it sounds like the same mistake. But I was hoping that Grant might be able to offer a source or something explaining why this particular process does not remove retinoic acid. On the one hand you've got this company claiming their casein is virtually free of vitamins due to this production process. On the other hand there is a claim that the heating oxidizes the retinol into retinoic acid, which is then wrapped in the casein and that's it. But if we want to try to push against established science (and that is what I'm aiming to do), then we need something a bit more firm. I hope to hear back from the company on this issue for more clarification.
Quote from Josh on March 27, 2019, 8:42 amQuote from Orion on March 27, 2019, 8:12 amSince heat changes(oxidizes) the retinol to retinoic acid, so now the casein contains RA? Could be the same flaw from the 1920s I assume.
Yes, it sounds like the same mistake. But I was hoping that Grant might be able to offer a source or something explaining why this particular process does not remove retinoic acid. On the one hand you've got this company claiming their casein is virtually free of vitamins due to this production process. On the other hand there is a claim that the heating oxidizes the retinol into retinoic acid, which is then wrapped in the casein and that's it. But if we want to try to push against established science (and that is what I'm aiming to do), then we need something a bit more firm. I hope to hear back from the company on this issue for more clarification.
Yea it would be nice to have 100% per reviewed assays that show the casein is 100% VA or RA free. This is 2019, should be possible, or just feed the rats rice, 100% VA free white rice. Why was casein pick for this in 1920s? 100 years of health issues because casein was picked for VA free controls...
Quote from Josh on March 27, 2019, 3:35 am@ggenereux
Quote from ggenereux on March 23, 2019, 5:23 pmI don’t want to get into debates. But, I think if anyone carefully reads my ebooks, it will be clear that the autoimmune diseases are a poisoning, not a deficiency.
Grant, I have tried to comment a couple of times on the blog itself but it seems my comments got lost in moderation. So let me just briefly say that I am completely convinced by your argument and think you have made the greatest discovery in public health ever. You should be awarded the Nobel prize and lauded for your genius. Unfortunately, the world being the way it is, you are likely to be studiously ignored and eventually ridiculed and disgraced. I hope I am proved wrong on that score.
I have a question about so-called "vitamin free" casein. I came across a study from 1999 where they fed some rats a vitamin A "deficient" diet and for other rats they supplemented retinoic acid. What was surprising is that the rats who received the retinoic acid supplement did better on the particular outcomes they were measuring compared to those on the "deficiency" diet. Here is a link to the study: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/70/4/502/4729088
(BTW I got to that study via this one, which I got to via this one on "The Neurobiology of Retinoic Acid in Affective Disorders."
So one question I have is: how do you make sense of their findings in light of what we know about retinoic acid? And I don't mean that in a challenging or debating way. I am genuinely puzzled and would love the hear your perspective in light of your knowledge and wisdom on this topic.
The second question I have (with similar intent) is this: the diet they fed the rats in this study is from Envigo/Teklad. It does not use lard, but it does use casein. However, this casein is supposed to be "vitamin-free." Here is a fact sheet on this company's vitamin-A deficient rodent diet and their "vitamin-free" casein. Note that this is not the same ID number as the one given in the paper. I could not get any information about the one identified in the paper and am waiting for a response from the company about it. But I assume its similar to this one:
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/86143.pdf
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/ca.160040-vft-casein.pdf
One thing that jumped out at me from the casein info sheet is that the "vitamin-free" casein has a yellow-orange color, which is similar to the color of powdered retinoic acid. Another is that the fact sheet on the casein doesn't include numbers for vitamin A or retinoic Acid. I went back and read the deficiency diet chapter in your PfP book, but I was not able to see (or understand) a clear explanation as for why the method used to extract retinol from casein (using heat and ethanol) doesn't work. I have written to the company asking them for more information on the vitamin A / retinoic acid content of their casein. So far no answer. Any light you could shed on these matters would be most appreciated.
I actually got an answer back from the company that makes that rodent diet. I'd love to hear your take on this. Here is was I wrote, followed by the response:
To Whom It Concerns,
I came across a reference in this paper to a Teklad rodent diet that is vitamin-A deficient. The ID number given in the paper is TD 69523, but I cannot find a diet by that number anywhere on your website. The only vitamin-A deficient rodent diet I could find is TD 86143. Do you no longer manufacture 69523? Either way, could you please send me the technical specifications for it?
Also, I have a question about the "Vitamin-free" Casein (CA.160040) that is included in the vitamin-A deficient rodent diet. In particular, I am concerned that there may be non-negligible amounts of retinoic acid remaining in the casein after the extraction process. This would be consistent with the yellow-orange color of the casein, which is the same color as retinoic acid powder. I looked at the fact sheet you provide on-line about the vitamin-free casein, but it did not have enough details for me to put this concern to rest. Do you have any more detailed documentation or citation to any published material about this preparation process that guarantees it is clean of all forms of vitamin A, especially retinoic acid?
AND HERE IS THE ANSWER:
The formula TD.69523 has not been produced in many years, I see that paper was published in 2001, and we probably haven’t made it since then.
The formula is old (goes back to 1969) and utilizes an ingredient no longer available. That ingredient is heat-treated vitamin free casein.
I honestly do not know anything about how that ingredient was prepared and I’ve been here the longest of any of the nutritionists. The normal extraction was done, but then there would have been some type of heating and that is the part I don’t know any details about.
We still produce the vitamin-free casein – really this is ethanol extracted and then undergoes wash steps before being dried. This is all done in an enclosed vessel.
The casein starts at about 1% fat and this is reduced to less than 0.5%.
Yes this product does have a yellow cast to it, and I don’t know what is the source of this color.
However, measurement of vitamin A (retinol) in diets produced with this extracted casein are below the level of commercial lab detection.
We no longer test the product for vitamins because all of the historical data showed that levels of vitamins that were assayed for were not measurable, apart from folic acid.
Would retinoic acid even be present in this source ingredient? I don’t find resources that indicate retinoic acid is stored to any degree. Other than the color, what makes you think this concentrated protein source could contain measurable retinoic acid?
I have not been asked about this previously.
TD.69523 is not appreciably different than TD.86143 other than the replacement of heat-treated ethanol extracted casein with regular ethanol extracted casein.
Both use cottonseed oil as the fat source – that is also “traditional” in vitamin A deficient diets as that was done as a precaution believing corn oil could have appreciable amounts of carotenoids, but with bleaching and refinement that is not likely to be the case.
I wish it were a simpler matter to send you a sample of the product, if you were able to measure very low level retinoic acid. Any custom diet shipped abroad has to be irradiated.
Another source I had was a report from a manufacturer of feeds used in lab diets, they published the retinol content specifically of casein.
Does anyone know if this manufacturer report has ever been published online anywhere to look up the retinol content of casein?
Quote from Josh on April 27, 2019, 3:42 amQuote from Josh on March 27, 2019, 3:35 am@ggenereux
Quote from ggenereux on March 23, 2019, 5:23 pmI don’t want to get into debates. But, I think if anyone carefully reads my ebooks, it will be clear that the autoimmune diseases are a poisoning, not a deficiency.
Grant, I have tried to comment a couple of times on the blog itself but it seems my comments got lost in moderation. So let me just briefly say that I am completely convinced by your argument and think you have made the greatest discovery in public health ever. You should be awarded the Nobel prize and lauded for your genius. Unfortunately, the world being the way it is, you are likely to be studiously ignored and eventually ridiculed and disgraced. I hope I am proved wrong on that score.
I have a question about so-called "vitamin free" casein. I came across a study from 1999 where they fed some rats a vitamin A "deficient" diet and for other rats they supplemented retinoic acid. What was surprising is that the rats who received the retinoic acid supplement did better on the particular outcomes they were measuring compared to those on the "deficiency" diet. Here is a link to the study: https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/70/4/502/4729088
(BTW I got to that study via this one, which I got to via this one on "The Neurobiology of Retinoic Acid in Affective Disorders."
So one question I have is: how do you make sense of their findings in light of what we know about retinoic acid? And I don't mean that in a challenging or debating way. I am genuinely puzzled and would love the hear your perspective in light of your knowledge and wisdom on this topic.
The second question I have (with similar intent) is this: the diet they fed the rats in this study is from Envigo/Teklad. It does not use lard, but it does use casein. However, this casein is supposed to be "vitamin-free." Here is a fact sheet on this company's vitamin-A deficient rodent diet and their "vitamin-free" casein. Note that this is not the same ID number as the one given in the paper. I could not get any information about the one identified in the paper and am waiting for a response from the company about it. But I assume its similar to this one:
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/86143.pdf
https://www.envigo.com/resources/data-sheets/ca.160040-vft-casein.pdf
One thing that jumped out at me from the casein info sheet is that the "vitamin-free" casein has a yellow-orange color, which is similar to the color of powdered retinoic acid. Another is that the fact sheet on the casein doesn't include numbers for vitamin A or retinoic Acid. I went back and read the deficiency diet chapter in your PfP book, but I was not able to see (or understand) a clear explanation as for why the method used to extract retinol from casein (using heat and ethanol) doesn't work. I have written to the company asking them for more information on the vitamin A / retinoic acid content of their casein. So far no answer. Any light you could shed on these matters would be most appreciated.
I actually got an answer back from the company that makes that rodent diet. I'd love to hear your take on this. Here is was I wrote, followed by the response:
To Whom It Concerns,
I came across a reference in this paper to a Teklad rodent diet that is vitamin-A deficient. The ID number given in the paper is TD 69523, but I cannot find a diet by that number anywhere on your website. The only vitamin-A deficient rodent diet I could find is TD 86143. Do you no longer manufacture 69523? Either way, could you please send me the technical specifications for it?
Also, I have a question about the "Vitamin-free" Casein (CA.160040) that is included in the vitamin-A deficient rodent diet. In particular, I am concerned that there may be non-negligible amounts of retinoic acid remaining in the casein after the extraction process. This would be consistent with the yellow-orange color of the casein, which is the same color as retinoic acid powder. I looked at the fact sheet you provide on-line about the vitamin-free casein, but it did not have enough details for me to put this concern to rest. Do you have any more detailed documentation or citation to any published material about this preparation process that guarantees it is clean of all forms of vitamin A, especially retinoic acid?
AND HERE IS THE ANSWER:
The formula TD.69523 has not been produced in many years, I see that paper was published in 2001, and we probably haven’t made it since then.
The formula is old (goes back to 1969) and utilizes an ingredient no longer available. That ingredient is heat-treated vitamin free casein.
I honestly do not know anything about how that ingredient was prepared and I’ve been here the longest of any of the nutritionists. The normal extraction was done, but then there would have been some type of heating and that is the part I don’t know any details about.
We still produce the vitamin-free casein – really this is ethanol extracted and then undergoes wash steps before being dried. This is all done in an enclosed vessel.
The casein starts at about 1% fat and this is reduced to less than 0.5%.
Yes this product does have a yellow cast to it, and I don’t know what is the source of this color.
However, measurement of vitamin A (retinol) in diets produced with this extracted casein are below the level of commercial lab detection.
We no longer test the product for vitamins because all of the historical data showed that levels of vitamins that were assayed for were not measurable, apart from folic acid.
Would retinoic acid even be present in this source ingredient? I don’t find resources that indicate retinoic acid is stored to any degree. Other than the color, what makes you think this concentrated protein source could contain measurable retinoic acid?
I have not been asked about this previously.
TD.69523 is not appreciably different than TD.86143 other than the replacement of heat-treated ethanol extracted casein with regular ethanol extracted casein.
Both use cottonseed oil as the fat source – that is also “traditional” in vitamin A deficient diets as that was done as a precaution believing corn oil could have appreciable amounts of carotenoids, but with bleaching and refinement that is not likely to be the case.
I wish it were a simpler matter to send you a sample of the product, if you were able to measure very low level retinoic acid. Any custom diet shipped abroad has to be irradiated.
Cottonseed oil could have been the reason they died so quick! "rabbits that had been fed 2% Cottonseed Oil for 7 weeks had significantly lower blood chemistry parameters (compared to wheat bran controls) and significantly more stored hepatic vitamin A (compared to rabbits fed other fats)." https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11558638/
Cottonseed has gossypol, a toxic yellow phenolic compound. Supposedly it is refined out of the edible oil, but it makes you wonder what they were really feeding those rats.
And then hey let's "Ferment" this cod liver oil! (why am I so dumb?)