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Retinol in eggs and dairy
@jessica2 So you take some calcium supplements? Btw I don't think that low temp pasteurization process does any significant damage to the milk.. Here in CZ it is not legal to sell raw milk.. Here are farms where they will sell you raw milk, but without a car it is not possible for me to get there like every 4-5 day or how long can last fresh raw milk.. I think homogenization is much bigger problem, because it completely destroys the structure of the fat and I think after that process that milk is very dangerous for the body. But you can buy non homogenized milk and goat milk doesn't need homogenization, because goat milk fat particles are much more smaller than in cow milk. So goat milk is naturally somewhat homogenized..
@jessica2
in Kansas, where I live, dairy farmers can sell raw milk/dairy directly to consumers, but the purchase has to be made on their farm. and there are some states allowed to sell at the grocer. realmilk.com
@jessica2
Incremental increase in health is something that needs qualified. How incremental? What other changes in your diet and or exercise routines did you make? Was butter was the only thing you changed over a 5 year period? How much were you eating before compared to after?
Incremental improvement directly observable to myself not attributable to anything other than reducing my vA intake. It's not evidence, I'm just sharing my experience. Take it or leave it.
"Most people have Hypervitaminosis A by middle age...". Thats a bold statement that needs more proof.
A number of studies conducted in the UK, New Zealand, USA and Canada have shown high rates of Hypervitaminosis A (>300 ug retinol/g liver). This study in London found that 30% of autopsied livers had over 300 ug retinol/g liver. The median liver retinol level in accident victims (i.e. mostly healthy people) was 270 ug/g. This study which was done in the 70s showed that liver retinol levels decreased with age. Perhaps that was due to children being supplemented with cod liver oil.
US data shows liver retinol levels increasing with age:
Mean serum retinol levels tend to increase with age:
Hypervitaminosis A just means a state in which retinoic acid levels are high enough to cause pathogenesis. 300 ug retinol/g liver is the suggested level at which it occurs because that is often the level at which free retinol enters the bloodstream. If someone has a reduced level of RBP then Hypervitaminosis A can occur at lower liver retinol levels.
If liver levels are lower than 300 ug/g and regardless of whether free retinol is present in serum a health benefit is seen from depleting liver retinol levels, serum retinol levels and serum retinoic acid levels does that not mean that Hypervitaminosis A can affect those with liver retinol levels lower than 300 ug/g?
More proof is also needed that dairy causes this rather than widespread fortification and supplements (which i suspect are the culprits).
Hypervitaminosis A is determined by factors such as one's state of health and genetics. Vitamin A intakes that are not high enough to cause free retinol in serum may still cause pathogenesis. Liver health, sunlight exposure, smoke exposure and more influence how much vitamin A is needed to create toxicity. Vitamin A intakes from other food sources vary and can determine if dairy contributes to Hypervitaminosis A or not. Dairy consumption can be high or low. Many factors to consider but dairy is the main source of retinyl esters in most people's diets.
Evolutionarily speaking, no, dairy is not that new. It could be 20,000 years old, which makes it older than farming. But a lot of estimates have it contemporary with farming and grain harvesting and domestication of animals:
It conferred many advantages to temperate climate peoples as the above link details.
20,000 years ago we were all consuming dairy products? No. Small groups might have been and you have no information on how much they were consuming.
Most dairy products consumed in the past were low in lactose and yet they didn't even get universal acceptance. China completely shunned them.
In the Middle Ages dairy was known as the poor man's meat. Consumption of it was inversely correlated with wealth.
Warm nasty tasting goat milk souring in a bucket with little flecks of dried poo in it and no sieve to remove them. Not much else to eat and too poor to kill the animal for meat. That's how dairy products started.
By this standard you should reject grains too and accept wild fruits, even high VA ones and you should probably reject all non-wild and farm grown domesticated produce, grains, vegetables but accept wild leaves and fruits and berries that are high in VA and you should probably eat liver because evolutionarily, all that was eaten. You should also go starving for periods to mimic the evolutionary selection too. Are these things you do because they are the accepted evolutionarily correct things in human history and physiology? Are you a mainly carnivore that eats liver and wild gleaned grains and berries and leaves and fasts for long periods of time?? Because anything other than that is "new" on the evolutionary scale.
I can't think of any wild edible fruit I wouldn't eat. I especially love berries. What is wrong with wild fruit?
I find liver revolting and would never eat it if I lived in the stone age and selected food based on instinct alone unless I was starving with no other option.
You're confusing caution for what is new with complete acceptance for what isn't.
You are also misinformed on pre agricultural diets. Partially refined grain and tuber starch, legumes, tree sap and honey were all part of the diet. I've posted about this before. Wild grains and legumes have been consumed for at least many tens of thousands of years. Dairy is the only non paleolithic food group in the human diet.
I didn't even say that it needed to be avoided..
@jessica2 and do you feel any difference taking calcium citrate? Sometimes I have strong nails and sometimes I can bend them easily. I will try add some calcium citrate to my all meals in small amounts, but I have to be careful with the dose because it makes me constipated if I take too much..
Quote from Jessica2 on November 25, 2023, 4:34 am@jiri well I do notice much less foot and calf cramps. I've struggled with those for a long time.
Another thing: As I've learned how to take care of kidneys, (which I now believe supercedes the importance of the liver slightly) one thing that is important is to balance calcium and phosphorus levels and calcium citrate helps me do that as well. I'll link the screenshot of a good summary of why I choose calcium citrate. But basically I think the horrible detox reaction I had in my kidneys could well have been an oxalate dump due to labs showing kidney distress and calcium citrate also helps prevent kidney stones due to oxalates.
Also, chalk up another win for dairy as its calcium binds with oxalates to prevent kidney stones. Plant calcium is oxalate form, which is why plant sources of calcium are not much good for humans.
Calcium hasn't yet constipated me that I notice but since starting low VA, my bowels are messed up and have never been the same. It's too often opposite of constipation even with things like charcoal and fibers and things that give others constipation. And even after going moderate VA and widening what I eat a bit, it hasnt corrected much. It really sometimes makes me regret going on an elimination diet in the first place. As I never had bowel issues before.
I don’t have much to add, other than to say this is a really, really important observation. ^ I’m sorry about your horrible detox reaction, @jessica2. Thank you for sharing your experience and regrets. Neglecting consideration of how potential oxalate toxicity complicates responses to this dietary approach is a huge mistake, IMO.
Quote from Inger on November 24, 2023, 8:41 amQuote from AlexM on November 24, 2023, 4:30 am@pawel He knows more about the toxic effects that it can have, but he has hardly looked into most of the reasons that I previously mentioned which could be impairing the correct metabolism and catabolism of Vitamin A and metabolites apart from glyphosate.
Also I was watching the documentary blue zones where they visit the places in the world where people live the longest, in the Okinawa episode they were looking into which food was responsible for their increased longevity and they discovered that the brightly purple fleshed sweet potatoes was the most commonly and widely consumed food out of all the foods for the Okinawan population. These have a fair amount of Vitamin A carotenoids and probably more than google states as they only usually account for the beta carotene values and not the other carotenoids. If Vitamin A is so toxic why is this the most commonly consumed food in Okinawa where they have the longest living people, I know their is a different mechanism for pro vitamin A carotenoids and we store them but they all eventually leave the body as retinoic acid. I also developed my Vitamin A toxicity from carotenoids and not from pre formed Vitamin A.
I have read carotenoid conversion to vitamin A is genetically dependent. It differs a lot. So maybe thats why someone get issues, other not? Maybe Okinawans were genetically adapted to sweet potatoes. If it then is true that they had so much of them. Everything needs to be questioned, so many lies out there.
Well I have reduced conversion of beta carotene to Vitamin A according to my BCMO1 mutations.
I absolutely don't think carotenoids are a toxic molecule by themselves, it is just impaired Vitamin A metabolism (due to various factors) which can make them toxic or can build up in toxic amounts in some cases. For example I have gone to tropical countries and eaten lots of mangos and beta carotene containing fruits there and consuming them there clearly gives you a lot of perks in those environments such as sun protection, feeling good in the sun, improved eye sight, colours became more vivid, feeling more connected with nature those are all things I experienced after consuming carotenoid containing fruit and veg in tropical sunny countries.
To think carotenoids are toxic is nonsense, and there is a reason they convert into Vitamin A because they are an important part of our physiology. Do I think one should consume lots of beta carotene foods in a cold dark cloudy city no, I think one should be eating those foods in hot sunny tropical climates where they are suited too. Or if you have strong thyroid function then I think they are fine to eat wherever you are but most people don't have that these days.
On the topic of milk and eggs, I consume both daily and have no issues, but today I tried making pancakes with 2 eggs, 200ml milk, one spoon of whey protein powder, 100g white organic flour, spoon of coconut oil for frying. They were delicious but they made my palms bright red, so clearly were inflammatory to me but I want to know why. The same thing happened when I used organic coconut flour another time but worse. On occasion some days I eat 8 eggs (usually have 3 a day) and have no symptoms like this, likewise with milk I can drink a lot in a day and have none of these symptoms. Is this reaction to pancakes to do with Vitamin A issues or is it something else, for example the pancakes brown slightly when frying which would mean AGES (Advanced glycation end products) are being created that are inflammatory and toxic. Or does heating the milk damage it in some way. The organic white wheat flour I had never used before cooking these pancakes, so I'm unsure if it has glyphosate, but the organic coconut flour I used another time also gave me bad reaction when I made pancakes with it. Usually I consume large amounts of pre-made organic white sourdough with no issues. Or is it just simply the combination of all of them which makes them problematic.
Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas, I would love to be able to eat these without any reactions. Thanks
Quote from Jessica2 on November 24, 2023, 12:18 pmAnd like @inger, I believe raw dairy is more a health food than not, if youre not lactose intolerant, because evolution has smiled on those who aren't LOL.
I am (homozygotic) lactose intolerant. The only dairy I can have without taking lactase is raw dairy. So I personally believe lactose intolerance is a result of pasteurization.
@jessica2
Tim. You present no proof about dairy being what you say it is. At least I linked a single article about it you don't present any links just your suppositions. You showed graphs but none linking Dairy to vitamin A hypervitaminosis and still haven't approached the idea of supplemental sources being the source of a problem.
This is what you wrote:
"Most people have Hypervitaminosis A by middle age...". Thats a bold statement that needs more proof.
I responded with evidence to back up my argument.
I quote from the article you posted:
"Something happened when we started drinking milk that reduced mortality," says Loren Cordain, an exercise physiologist at Colorado State University and an expert on Paleolithic nutrition. That something, though, is a bit of a mystery.
Do you know who Cordain is? He has been one of the loudest voices over the years warning against dairy consumption.
What do you think this article is implying? If anything it backs up what I'm saying that dairy was consumed due to a lack of other options.
Most hypervitaminosis A is due to supplements or liver consumption.
Hypervitaminosis A is due to consuming excess vitamin A. Dairy is the main dietary source of retinyl esters in the diet. It's not really that difficult a concept to understand.
Also, if you don't accept my definition of Hypervitaminosis A could you please explain your definition? As I explained Hypervitaminosis A really means any level of vitamin A that contributes to pathogenesis.
Also, what evidence do you have that the retinyl esters in high fat dairy cause no harm when consumed regularly? Consuming any significant amount of retinyl esters causes a multi hour elevation in retinoic acid levels. Can you please show evidence that that causes no pathological physiological effect?
Dairy in the past had much less lactose? Where the hell are you pulling this from?
You wrote this then in the same paragraph you wrote:
Cheese and yogurt have much less lactose in them anyways.
Fresh milk was not commonly consumed in the past.
Dairy had shit in it? WTF are you smoking? Then so does meat.
I was just jokingly pointing out the humble origins of dairy but there is also a lot of truth to what I said.
My job growing up was to hand milk the family cow before school. Small flecks of dried poo, hair and other debris always falls into the bucket when you are hand milking a cow. I always had to pour the milk through a fine sieve afterwards. Quite often a cow will start pooing while you are in the middle of milking it. It's normally sloppy and can hit the ground and splatter everywhere including into the milk bucket. I've never encountered an issue with poo with all the chickens, wild rabbits and wild pigs that I've butchered. If any meat got dirty it was easy to wash. Besides I never eat raw meat whereas milk is consumed raw by some.
Everywhere in the Middle Ages at every time it was considered poor people food?
I quote:
Dairy Products - Medieval Cuisine
"Milk was an important source of animal protein for those who could not afford meat. It would mostly come from cows, but milk from goats and sheep was also common. Plain fresh milk was not consumed by adults except the poor or sick, and was usually reserved for the very young or elderly. Poor adults would sometimes drink buttermilk or whey or milk that was soured or watered down.[64] Fresh milk was overall less common than other dairy products because of the lack of technology to keep it from spoiling. On occasion it was used in upper-class kitchens in stews, but it was difficult to keep fresh in bulk and almond milk was generally used in its stead.[65]
Cheese was far more important as a foodstuff, especially for common people, and it has been suggested that it was, during many periods, the chief supplier of animal protein among the lower classes.[66] Many varieties of cheese eaten today, like Dutch Edam, Northern French Brie and Italian Parmesan, were available and well known in late medieval times. There were also whey cheeses, like ricotta, made from by-products of the production of harder cheeses. Cheese was used in cooking for pies and soups, the latter being common fare in German-speaking areas. Butter, another important dairy product, was in popular use in the regions of Northern Europe that specialized in cattle production in the latter half of the Middle Ages, the Low Countries and Southern Scandinavia. While most other regions used oil or lard as cooking fats, butter was the dominant cooking medium in these areas. Its production also allowed for a lucrative butter export from the 12th century onward.[67]"
Upper classes ate dairy but it played a less important role in the diet.
What does that have to do with its nutritional profile? I never said lactose was good, some people can digest it making it much less "bad". Cheese and yogurt have much less lactose in them anyways. Whatever dude, go back to your pipe. I tried to be objective about it but you're obviously not. Your colorful narrative descriptions of turds floating in milk pails doesn't prove or mean anything.
In the past people chose to eat less dairy products if they could afford to. The average person is far better off listening to their instincts than some high confidence low information nutritional theorist like yourself.
I said humans were eating Wild Grains for a long time I never said they weren't. I said you should shy away from Modern forms of vegetables and Grains which are way different than the wild ancestors with much more starch and sugars. You should only be eating Wild gleaned Grains fruits leaves Etc tubers whatever the hell you think they ate that's what you should be eating... you should be wildcrafting all your own food if that's the standard. You should be stalking and killing every single piece of meat you eat with a bow and arrow or an atlatl if that's the standard... But you can't even do that because they ate mammoths and we can't do that anymore. Nothing we eat besides that looks like "paleolithic food" unless you hunt and wildcraft and even then, no. I'm glad you know for certain what you would do as a stone age person LOL. That makes your position much more scientific.
Many vegetables contain less toxins and are more edible than their wild counterparts. It makes little sense to be concerned about the differences between them and their wild counterparts. If you think that domesticated grains are worse than their wild counterparts due to containing more starch you lack an understanding of why grains are even part of the human diet in the first place. If you think the difference between mammoth meat and say beef is as significant as the difference between meat and dairy you lack a basic understanding of food science.
I'll keep enjoying dairy because my ancestors enjoyed it and I can. I'm sorry that you can't or choose not to or whatever the hell your point is. What is your point? That Dairy is full of vitamin A and poison but you should still eat it? is that what you're saying? Because that doesn't really sound like what you're saying. You're saying if you don't eat butter your health improves. Which is kind of silly and reductionist.
I've already clearly stated my position on dairy in a previous post.
Just because you say it's something doesn't mean it is no matter how long your posts are ✌️
I feel like your whole purpose in this forum now is to be a long winded annoying less caustic version of Wavy. I kind of miss his style right now to be honest.
It can be annoying when another person points out some of the holes in one's arguments. All I can suggest is to either post less often or put more thought and research into your posts.
Quote from AlexM on November 25, 2023, 4:29 pmOn the topic of milk and eggs, I consume both daily and have no issues, but today I tried making pancakes with 2 eggs, 200ml milk, one spoon of whey protein powder, 100g white organic flour, spoon of coconut oil for frying. They were delicious but they made my palms bright red, so clearly were inflammatory to me but I want to know why. The same thing happened when I used organic coconut flour another time but worse. On occasion some days I eat 8 eggs (usually have 3 a day) and have no symptoms like this, likewise with milk I can drink a lot in a day and have none of these symptoms. Is this reaction to pancakes to do with Vitamin A issues or is it something else, for example the pancakes brown slightly when frying which would mean AGES (Advanced glycation end products) are being created that are inflammatory and toxic. Or does heating the milk damage it in some way. The organic white wheat flour I had never used before cooking these pancakes, so I'm unsure if it has glyphosate, but the organic coconut flour I used another time also gave me bad reaction when I made pancakes with it. Usually I consume large amounts of pre-made organic white sourdough with no issues. Or is it just simply the combination of all of them which makes them problematic.
Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas, I would love to be able to eat these without any reactions. Thanks
Suggestion: probably issues with the coconut since you've had milk and eggs without problems previously. I wouldn't eat it if it makes you feel uncomfortable. Regarding wheat and whey: Make an experiment eating each separately in the same quantity as when you've reacted to the pancakes. It can be about a basic intolerance which can also be tested for. One can speculate for all eternity but only elimination/testing will actually prove a point. Red palms also doesn't have to mean inflammation. My palms get red after exercising and if really warm. A crp test checks levels of inflammation in the body.
I have an intolerance test at home right now, will check I think 120 foods for potential intolerance. Good to know. Also good to know is one is not intolerant to something for life, but intolerance may be a result of bad gut health, and will improve as gut health gets better.