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Riboflavin's role in an important VA detox pathway

Yes I think that B2 deficiency is massive. Both B1 & B2. I now realise that some of my ‘poisoning’ symptoms (I took too many vA supplements in summer 2018) that I had put down to vitamin A toxicity were in fact vitamin B2 deficiency. They came on when I took the vA supplements & stopped when I stopped taking them. This happened even though I was supplementing B2 in my multivitamin & sometimes extra. This means that in me at least vitamin A toxicity caused a huge requirement for vitamin B2. Or maybe the vA toxicity used up the cofactors required for B2 activation. Or maybe both. I haven’t thought past the symptoms tbh. Need to have a think about this one!

 
No problem Rachel. Yeah I think supplementing with both B2 and B1 is best. ATM I'm taking a Berocca a day which contains all the B vitamins in moderate amounts including B5 and Biotin. B5 and Biotin compete in the intestine so I would avoid taking a supplement that contains a lot of Biotin and no B5. I also supplement with B1 and B2, both at different times of the day, although I'm not sure it matters.

@jaj

I'm glad you came to this realization because this is what I've come to realise too. Seb derm is one of the symptoms of a B2 deficiency and that has progressively improved for me on a low VA diet (without supplementing B2), I was thinking a low VA diet must be B2 sparing and then I came across the info about B2 being required for VA excretion and that confirmed it for me.

This article keep coming to mind on the activation of B2, and the minerals needed but depleted detoxing VA.

https://b12oils.com/rnb.htm

I have started testing this protocol, I am somewhat replete in Se on latest hair test, but have always shown low Mo in past hair tests.

Beginning to think the major issue caused by accutane is that the body thinks it has produced to much retinoic acid, so probably starts dumping B2, Mo, etc to stop the production in the excretion pathway, causing deficiencies.

Just saw Grant's latest post, and I have to add that I have toxicity symptoms (burning skin, insomnia, acne) on the carnivore diet as well as on a diet of beef and rice. Beef and potatoes and sunflower seeds/oil keeps me symptom free. This makes me think that it may be something more than a riboflavin deficiency, since potatoes are not a good source, but instead perhaps a copper or molybdenum deficiency (potatoes are decent sources of both). (By the way, beans are one of the best sources of molybdenum, but I cannot tolerate them due to their high sulfur/thiol content).

puddleduck has reacted to this post.
puddleduck

Iodine, selenium and molybdenum are required in the cascade to activate B2, which then get B1, B6 and B12 going.  Riboflavin deficiency is not about getting enough riboflavin, it is about supporting an environment to activate it.

Activate B2 protocol (low dose minerals)

eliza1275 has reacted to this post.
eliza1275

Interesting, Orion, thank you for sharing. However, I am still not getting much riboflavin in potatoes, and yet doing well. Maybe the riboflavin from the beef is enough, or maybe it's something else. I still am not sure why I get symptoms on a beef only diet.

Hi y'all - I've been looking around regarding "Vitamin D" and found the work of neurologist, Dr. Stasha Gominak. She's rung a lot of bells for my situation (very low D level) and nagging symptoms. I never wanted to supplement D since it's a hormone, but I'm going to give it a go and see what happens. If it positively impacts my thyroid, cholesterol, neuropathy or disrupted sleep I'll be real happy. Her work on REM sleep, PCOS, migraines, sleep apnea, insomnia, bodily repair, pain, brain activity, burning hands and feet, autoimmune, dental caries, teeth-grinding and a bunch of other things is fascinating. 

She has some really interesting things to say that I've never heard before regarding the relationship of gut microbes, B-vitamins, "Vit D" and how good sleep (measured) impacts repair-mechanisms. She gets her patients D-levels up to between 60-80 and finds that over time, with renewed good sleep, there's a greater demand on the B-vitamins due to increased cellular repair. I'm wondering how this deficiency might be related to high-VA levels. Never really considered it much, but there must be literature out there that applies. Could VA-toxicity mess up VD-levels?

My Serum-Retinol is 18-times what Grant's is, after 14-months of a fairly strict diet (1.88 umol/L -- if I did the conversion right -- my lab says 54 mcg/dL -- range 38-98). My Retinol Binding Protein is 6.1 mg/dL with the range being 1.5-6.7   Don't know how to interpret that yet, but guess I'm making plenty of it. A few of my inflammatory-markers are quite low, but there's definitely something missing. Also, gave blood recently and dropped Total Iron from 149 to 138 and Ferritin from 219 to 146. Planning to do that a few more times for good measure, and track it to see if it helps reduce the Serum-A number as well. 

https://drgominak.com/vitamin-d/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N20nyUTqiyY

Next one is a long interview - her part starts at the 20-minute mark. I found it easier to play it at 1.25 speed. She includes a number of things that I didn't hear in the interview she did with the guy at the link above, and more detailed discussion of ones she did.

At about the 50-minute mark she describes how 3 children from the same family had very low D-levels and after 1 month on 2,000 IU had different results, one dramatically higher, from the 20's to over 90. Testing is very much part of the equation. 

[later edit] If VA-toxicity messes with the microbiome (has anyone found evidence of that in the literature?) and can cause Vitamin B deficiencies, like in the one study in the PubMed thread which describes Folate deficiency due to retinoic acid, one has to wonder if VD-deficiency is just one more way that excess VA screws things up for us. Her description of the timing of the incidence of the epidemic of the variety of illnesses she's noticed is a close match to at least one of Grant's charts. She puts it at around 1980. Maybe some of the variation she's been seeing for 10 years in her patients has to do with their VA-status. She admits to not focusing on the subject of toxicity, and while not giving dietary advice, she said in the interview above that she's adopting Ketogenic choices for herself. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1czZoqP4Zg8

 

 

Jenny and rockarolla have reacted to this post.
Jennyrockarolla

interesting.  i just posted about how my lips are finally looking better.  I've been purposefully sunning, (although it is very cold) and I will add that to my list of things I changed recently that may have led to the better lips.  I'm betting it IS part of the fix.

@hillcountry   You wrote "[later edit] If VA-toxicity messes with the microbiome (has anyone found evidence of that in the literature?) and can cause Vitamin B deficiencies, like in the one study in the PubMed thread which describes Folate deficiency due to retinoic acid, one has to wonder if VD-deficiency is just one more way that excess VA screws things up for us. Her description of the timing of the incidence of the epidemic of the variety of illnesses she's noticed is a close match to at least one of Grant's charts. She puts it at around 1980. Maybe some of the variation she's been seeing for 10 years in her patients has to do with their VA-status. She admits to not focusing on the subject of toxicity, and while not giving dietary advice, she said in the interview above that she's adopting Ketogenic choices for herself. "

This article shows a fairly direct link between RA and IBD.  https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380709/   

A blog by someone who has SIBO wrote that their joints got much worse after eating alot of pumpkin.   That person didn't link that carotenoids/A lead to their SIBO in their post, though I think there is/was a cause and effect there whether directly or through depleting essential nutrients.  https://mystrugglewithsibo.wordpress.com/2013/10/13/hypervitaminosis-a/

According to Tim and/or Orion, I thought vitamin D depleted some of the Bs?   The last time I got eczema was in the summer after being exposed to the sun.  That summer I also had wierd patches on my face of some sort of rash that did not itch but was extremely rough/scaley and red.   The doc thought a B2 supplement would help - I don't think it did because it would reocur but was self-limiting and only lasted a few days at a time.   I am not saying I wasn't deficient in B2 but that the supplement didn't seem to work for me (because of what Orion has written about activation).