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Roles of Vitamin A Metabolism in the Development of Hepatic Insulin Resistance
Almost every single human that has ever lived has consumed a diet containing significant amounts of oleic acid and linoleic acid. The body synthesizes oleic acid endogenously from glucose and fructose. It's not responsible for causing insulin resistance.
The most elementary piece of the puzzle is choline deficiency. Olive oil can be used to induce NAFLD in lab rats but so can butter, soy oil, coconut oil and sugar. Every calorie source (fat, fructose, glucose, alcohol) except for glucose can be used to induce NAFLD and insulin resistance on a choline deficient diet. If a diet is choline sufficient then olive oil in the amounts normally consumed will not cause NAFLD and insulin resistance.
Quote from tim on October 26, 2023, 10:44 pmAlmost every single human that has ever lived has consumed a diet containing significant amounts of oleic acid and linoleic acid. The body synthesizes oleic acid endogenously from glucose and fructose. It's not responsible for causing insulin resistance.
The most elementary piece of the puzzle is choline deficiency. Olive oil can be used to induce NAFLD in lab rats but so can butter, soy oil, coconut oil and sugar. Every calorie source (fat, fructose, glucose, alcohol) except for glucose can be used to induce NAFLD and insulin resistance on a choline deficient diet. If a diet is choline sufficient then olive oil in the amounts normally consumed will not cause NAFLD and insulin resistance.
I don't think anyone has enough awareness to take the position that "every single human that has ever lived consumed a diet containing a significant amount of oleic and linoleic acid".
There are different clusters of cultures over the globe that gravitated towards a variety of different diets. Though, historical diets and their outcomes are of interest to me!
I mean, hunter gatherer diets were probably very seasonal (which would have huge shifts in fat / starch / protein and fiber proportions). Farming based cultures exhibited more control....and would end up with far more starch thru the seasons. But, the plant farmed matters, of course. Rice based, barley based, maize based (in Americas), potato based (some argue Europe was far more successful on potatoes). We don't really see an agrarian culture that ran on Avocados, or blocks of lard. Even the cultures that seemed to use olives, used olive oil to anoint...not to eat.
But, that is only a reference point. We now can trace what the different forms of chemicals do and how they are processed in the human body. And, fats that are non-saturated definitely go down a more difficult path to process than even saturated fats. And, that process is also far less oxidative....which contributes to lower NAD+ needed to detoxify things like Vitamin A even. This will also end up increasing the acetylized enzymes.
That all being said, how much MUFA would start making a material impact? I don't know...
Finally, there are many studies out there on rats using a variety of different fat decomposition amounts (e.g. comparing Coconut oil to Olive, etc.) And, MUFA / PUFAs score very badly here, as well. Fire in a bottle spends a decent amount of time on this in his videos. I recommend watching...
Even the cultures that seemed to use olives, used olive oil to anoint...not to eat.
Olive oil was a significant part of the Roman diet..
I mean, hunter gatherer diets were probably very seasonal (which would have huge shifts in fat / starch / protein and fiber proportions).
Whatever fat they ate in whatever season, if it wasn't coconut it contained a large amount of monounsaturated fat.
But, that is only a reference point. We now can trace what the different forms of chemicals do and how they are processed in the human body. And, fats that are non-saturated definitely go down a more difficult path to process than even saturated fats.
Lipogenesis in mammals involves a similar amount of monounsaturated fat synthesized to saturated fat. It must be really toxic if it's one of the main forms of long term energy storage the body produces for itself right?
Quote from tim on October 27, 2023, 8:06 pmEven the cultures that seemed to use olives, used olive oil to anoint...not to eat.
Olive oil was a significant part of the Roman diet..
I mean, hunter gatherer diets were probably very seasonal (which would have huge shifts in fat / starch / protein and fiber proportions).
Whatever fat they ate in whatever season, if it wasn't coconut it contained a large amount of monounsaturated fat.
But, that is only a reference point. We now can trace what the different forms of chemicals do and how they are processed in the human body. And, fats that are non-saturated definitely go down a more difficult path to process than even saturated fats.
Lipogenesis in mammals involves a similar amount of monounsaturated fat synthesized to saturated fat. It must be really toxic if it's one of the main forms of long term energy storage the body produces for itself right?
"Olive oil was a significant part of the Roman diet..." - Unsubstantiated, and highly debatable. Here's one source that suggests grains form the foundation:
https://naturalhistory.si.edu/sites/default/files/media/file/2010-brown-poster.pdf
"Based on our research, we suggest that the Roman diet relied heavily on cereals and legumes, which provided most of their caloric and nutritional needs."
In any case, it's just a reference point ... these people had little clue what they were doing to their bodies.
"It must be really toxic if it's one of the main forms of long term energy storage the body produces for itself right?"
Yes, the body can produce things that are toxic to itself. Uric acid, oxalic acid to name a few. And, obviously when it's forced to metabolize alcohol (at least 3g a day even if one does not drink), and retinol.
I don't understand what point(s) you are trying to make with these brief and somewhat snide comments.
"Olive oil was a significant part of the Roman diet..." - Unsubstantiated, and highly debatable. Here's one source that suggests grains form the foundation:
https://naturalhistory.si.edu/sites/default/files/media/file/2010-brown-poster.pdf
"Based on our research, we suggest that the Roman diet relied heavily on cereals and legumes, which provided most of their caloric and nutritional needs."
It's not highly debatable. Why tf are you interpreting what I said to mean that they either ate only olive oil or only grain?
Olive oil was also a big hit. It made up at least 12% of calories consumed at Herculaneum, and perhaps much more. The find supports historical sources indicating the average Roman consumed 20 liters of oil each year, and that the oil was one of the most significant fat sources in the Roman diet. Olives were grown widely all across the Roman Empire, providing ample supplies. “Oil wasn’t a condiment, it was a proper ingredient,” says co-author Silvia Soncin, an archaeologist at Sapienza University of Rome. “They got a lot of energy out of it.”
https://www.science.org/content/article/ancient-roman-vacationers-consumed-gobs-olive-oil-and-fish-volcano-victims-reveal
"It must be really toxic if it's one of the main forms of long term energy storage the body produces for itself right?"
Yes, the body can produce things that are toxic to itself. Uric acid, oxalic acid to name a few. And, obviously when it's forced to metabolize alcohol (at least 3g a day even if one does not drink), and retinol.
Why are you comparing metabolic waste products to synthesized energy stores?
I don't understand what point(s) you are trying to make with these brief and somewhat snide comments.
Don't get pissed just because I'm pointing out what is wrong about what you are saying. If you can see I'm wrong then it should be easy to refute what I'm saying instead of complaining about my responses.
It's hard to take someone seriously that is claiming one of the most important fatty acids in all human diets and one of the main fatty acids that is synthesized by mammals is toxic, clearly has little knowledge of lipid science and metabolism and nutrition in general and is misinterpreting most of what I'm saying.
If you have any good evidence to back up your massive claim cite it. Evidence showing it decreases insulin sensitivity in large amounts isn't good evidence, all macro nutrients except starch do that in large amounts especially given certain conditions like choline deficiency. Also, YT links are not references.
Also, just because different sugars and fatty acids can have different metabolic costs doesn't mean those differences are important or that certain sugars and fatty acids should be avoided. Even comparing fructose against glucose, there is a large difference in how they are metabolized yet it is wrong to conclude that sucrose should be avoided.
The idea that monounsaturated fat is harmful is as dumb as the saturated fat is harmful narrative.
The infographic I posted showed very little fat, and a food basis of grains and legumes.
There were cities in the Roman empire that may have tried other things, but even the article you posted on the one cities consumption of olive oil stipulated that it didn't represent the diet of the rest of the empire.
I find this starch and legume pattern existed in many many tribes that went to farming.
There is even a school of thought that the potato based cultures allowed better expansion because of the way they are grown (underground) and their nutritional density.
This whole thread is about insulin resistance. I'm pretty sure things that cause insulin resistance and amplify Vitamin As ability to do the same are fair game.
The fact that you won't watch a lecture with peer reviewed material just because it is on YouTube is insane, man.
Honestly, though, fatty acids are not my expertise. I have only recently learned of the woes of PUFA and olive oil. I was vulnerable to the fact that I used to consumed gobs of it.
Mercola 1st put a chink in that by showing the harms of too much linoleic acid, and then Meri and Fire in a Bottle spiked the ball. There are just too many issues in trying to process oleic and linoleic acids in the human body.
Now, if you're goal is to fatten up (the liver or the body), go right ahead.
If you really prefer to read blogs instead, Fire in a Bottle maintains one with many of the graphics and a whole list of references to mull thru.
I think the history *is* there that olive is the trad oil for Mediterranean people. And people were harming it all they way back to Bible times, there is a reading that says "harm not the oil or the wine". I will listen if someone wants to tell me this is some sort of giant ruse, this olive thing haha....but IMO Mediterranean people lived on wheat products, olive products, grape products, sheep products including cheese, fish and seafood and pig products including smoked pork, lard. Citrus. Greens. Eggs.
I think cold-pressed "rustic" olive oil has a super-strong veggie flavor (Ie, toxic in the way that veggies are toxic. The sort of thing carnivores are trying to avoid. There are more veggie toxins than just VA). Now, refined olive oil can have a gentler flavor, but to get that way, maybe it is harmed. IF you are trying to kill baddies in your stomach, the veg toxins in olive oil might be just the trick (and, as is traditional, you can even throw some culinary herbs in there too, and dip your bread all you like. And you might get some non-ruined fats too. )
I consider myself a "super taster". It could be that many people don't experience this. My (adult) son has very little ability to taste "bitter", for instance. Perhaps if you are a super-taster, it is for good reason. Perhaps those who don't taste the toxins are evolved for them. However, I do think that small children are often born super-tasters, and thus we end up with stand-offs at the table (when strong-tasting veggies are served) until they are taught to ignore their taste buds. I realized this was even true of Italian children when I was watching Rick Steves the other night. He was having spaghetti in a castle in Italy with the family that had lived there for 500 years. The children only had butter on their noodles. No sauce.
Recently someone posted about a woman who came down with lupus as a teen after growing up in a pizza shop. I think the Mediterranean diet became much more toxic when tomatoes were added. Before that, they were probably coming up about even between bland and toxic elements of the diet. (tomatoes are new-world)
I've heard it said among WAPF'ers (but even there it was disagreed upon) that olive oil makes you fat. WAP'ers are, in general, big on animal-fats. I think a normal Mediterranean diet would probably have had both animal and olive fats.