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Sexual Dimorphism, Healthy Growth & vA Depletion
Hi everyone,
I'm trying to ask this as maturely, tactfully and as gently as possible (not wishing to offend or upset anyone) and hopefully kickstart a candid discussion - I wanted to ask those who have been on vA depletion for a good length of time (say 2-3+ years, and hopefully now successfully depleted) if they have noticed any face, body, bone, muscle or sex organ changes occurring gradually as their health improved?? Specifically: changes in their structure, appearance or function.
I wanted to specifically ask if anyone had noticed:-
Men - larger genitals, improved virility, deeper / more masculine voice, broadening shoulders (just muscles OR bones too), broader rib cage or rib cage changes, narrower pelvis revealing a stronger adonis belt, wider / thicker wrists, larger muscles (that cannot be explained by an increase in training volume), reduction in gynecomastia (breast lumps behind nipples), increases in height, improved jaw-line / changes in face shape, change in eye appearance...
Women - larger / fuller / nicer (by your own estimation) breasts, improved periods and regularity (if previously irregular), normalized or improved libido, widening pelvis, changes to body fat distribution, face shape changes or changes in eye appearance...
I have seen Grant writing about his easier muscle growth, lots of writing on vA's feminizing effects on men, an anecdote about a lady's jaw straightening out, and even seen a couple of reports on men's rib cages widening / changing... which I found very interesting.
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Over the last 50 or so years, it seems very clear that there has been a gradual trend of men becoming less masculine, and women becoing less feminine. I don't say this to judge anyone or to be nasty, or to comment on any behavioural changes etc. etc. , but there appears to be a clear trend (at least, to me). I for one am much less masculine than my father - I am physically taller, and stronger (likely only because I have consistently done sports / trained with weights, whereas he has barely even looked at a dumbbell in his entire life - not because of any natural advantage I have...). But my beard growth is worse, my face is more baby-ish, my genitals are not as large.
I believe that something is (or a number of things are) assaulting us all on a cellular level, which was not present in the past (or at least, no where near as prevalent). I have heard and read theories around: plastics being used in food containers and toiletry bottles, the toiletries themselves, birth control traces in the water supply, birth control itself, PUFAs, xenoestrogens, EMF etc. etc. as an explanation for the reduced dimorphism - all of which sound plausible. But I have also been wondering lately how vA may play into it, and to what degree could these changes be attributed to increases in vA consumption (vA poisoning) over the last 5-7 decades ... 5%, 50%, 90% ... 0% and unrelated?
I have noticed that a significant portion of young men simply look like very tall children these days. I am 33 years old now, and would include myself in this (although I'm not young anymore haha!). If one looks at year-book photos from the 1950s vs the 2010s, the contrast is stark - 18 year olds used to look like MEN, but now we don't look as dimorphized. ON AVERAGE: gynecomastia is common even in young sporty guys, worse beard growth, wider hips, lower testosterone levels, smaller testes, higher pitched voices.
This isn't to say that *no men* are masculine-dimorphized anymore - of course, there are many who are. But I do seem to see a clear trend.
Any answers would be greatly appreciated - I also appreciate this may be a sensitive topic for many, so I hope no one is upset or offended. I am just very curious if a depletion in vA has led to any positive changes with regards to sexual dimorphism. Thanks
Hey, no offence (well, I'm not easily offended these days), you made your point very clearly. I agree with you 100%. Our forefathers were much more masculine, rugged. And sadly, I jumped on the feminising bandwagon at a young age when I started taking an SSRI. As for becoming more masculine over the course of my depletion? Phew, hard to say. Probably too early to tell. But there have been reports by Ourania whose husband has developed broader shoulders, I think? She will straighten out the story, I hope.
About women: Yes, watch old films. Beautiful creatures they were. No crazy make-up, hair colours and fashion styles. A lot of women today seem tough. And dominant. Oh, Jesus. Dominant women. It's all upside down. Men are supposed to be the dominant leader in a relationship, women the submissive one. This is the polarity that attracts the sexes. And mind you, dominance vs. submissiveness does not mean exploitation and violence, far from it. A good father is also dominant with his children, someone to rest on in the chaos of the world. Anyway, I think this lack of dyphormism is part of the reason why couples are less happy today. Too many men can't find the right partner, too many women are left on the shelf. The promiscuous lifestyle also hurts both sexes. Women complain that their guys don't want to commit, and guys complain that women aren't interested in them.
Hey @christian - thanks for the comment, interesting stuff! And sorry about the feminizing bandwagon - you aren't alone. I have a lot of issues relating to this too (some perceived, some provable).
Still though, I thought it would be best to keep this thread to discussions about any *physical* changes people have observed, rather than anything social / interpersonal etc. - probably best to avoid the muddy waters or normative statements (as the economists say).
I'm very cautious (perhaps overly so) of anyone feeling criticized or personally attacked in this thread, both men and women. I feel this issue of "androgynizing" of the sexes has been able to persist for so long precisely *because* it is very uncomfortable to talk about ... e.g. no man wants to admit that his father is more "manly" than him (or assess how!), like I have had to.
I disagree a bit with your observations. I would say that young women are now almost caricatures of femininity. Rolling out of high school with 30-year old woman's bodies, not teen woman's bodies. I agree with what you said about men though. My guess is this is due to sprays on foods.
At our family parties we used to play older generation against younger generation in volleyball, and even when us oldies got "over the hill" we could still beat out the young people, and badly too. The younger generation is less aggressive and less athletic.
I also worry very much about the younger generation not wanting to reproduce. Our younger generation is now starting to exit the most fertile years and haven't come close to replacing themselves.
There have been some posts about mewing and snoring and mouth habits. Some of those jawline things could be down to that.
There have been examples of children whose whole faces have been ruined by taking on a pet that they are allergic to, and they covert to mouth breathing during growth. I know I mouth-breathed as a child due to allergies. And allergies are related to VA.
I've been working with another idea that might help faces be more "cut" and less swollen, and that is lymphatic facial massage. I can see how that might help with head detox.
I've already been doing mewing, but I'm not sure I've really perfected mewing. I think it's another "constant battle" thing because it is about mouth habits and posture.
This video talks about these things: (I'm pretty sure it's this one.)
I think that one of the problems we are faced with is that we are exposed to hormones and they get into our bodies and they are as persistent as VA and probably compete for excretion.
I have gotten bigger boobs and butt. But I have also gained weight though, but the weight has gotten a lot to my butt and also to boobs. Yeah...lol. IDK if its the bean protocol that I am doing for about 8 month already, together with vitamin A depletion that I started one year before adding beans.
I do think my face has changed a little, to more harmonious look, my "less pretty" face side that is the right side, is getting somehow more harmonious and less different than the right... its very small changes but I am pretty sure this is so. My hair have gotten a bit fuller and eye brows too.
I can sense that my hormones have improved because often when I go grocery shopping, I end up having men looking at me in "that" way, very loving... its really nice to be honest. I am thinking they can sense my hormones somehow.
I am 47 and post menopause so I dont have any period anymore so I cant improve on that lol
The bean protocol is said to balance your hormones so I dont know if its that or also vitamin A depletion. Because i do both. But I like to think they both are contributing to healing.
@lil-chick interesting about what you say RE: younger women 'rolling out of high school with 30 year old woman's bodies'. Not quite sure what you mean though! I guess estrogens are higher on average (due to synthetics and poisoning), so the feminine traits deriving from estrogen may be further pronounced, but the traits deriving from progesterone may be diminished ...
And yes, I had heard a statistic that c. 1 in 2 (yes 50%!) of couples in America, who want children, actually have trouble conceiving. I have spoken to a lot of younger women recently who all have endometriosis (three! Ages 26-32) - it breaks my heart. I also read a study saying that men with a total testosterone lower than 500 ng/dl will have trouble conceiving (the current average in the US is just over 500!). It's not just about testosterone though - mine was recently measured at 950 total, which looks very high on the surface, but I think that elevated level is to do with me having iron overload at present (causing high SHBG and a reduction in free testosterone, which the body responds to by producing more total... I am treating the iron overload through blood donation). It has certainly not led to me having high-masculine traits.
I also believe that most younger men (unfortunately, myself included!) are so undimorphized (if that's not a real word, it is now!) that very few, if any, women are actually attracted to us ... this could also go towards explaining the younger generation not reproducing. I am 33, and tend to attract older women around late 30s / mid 40s, who tend to find me cute or sweet. But I appear to be invisible to most women say late 20s. I was just recently thinking about how vA may have played into this trend. The increased hormonal assault we are experiencing that you mentioned, plus the liver's inability to detox when overloaded with vA., equals a recipe for feminized men.
And yes, I'm well-versed in the whole mewing thing - been doing it for c. 6 years, and haven't noticed any changes. Unfortunately I had (/have) and "tongue tie" that stopped me from keeping my tongue in my palate through key growth phases, and I spent my entire childhood, teenage years and early adulthood competing in swimming, where mouth-breathing and open mouths are basically essential ... look at Michael Phelps! Clearly a result of poor oral posture ... Still though, I thought it would be interesting to think about whether vA played a role in poor bone shape and bone health, and if this could be reversed via depletion and good postural habits.
@Inger that's awesome - what wonderful benefits! Thanks for sharing 🙂
@andrew2, I think the girls are starting to mense about much earlier, and so when they are 17 now they have been under the influence of hormones for a much longer time. And perhaps the extra hormones in the environment ratchet up the changes.
When my girl was a teen I was standing around with another lady my age and watching our daughters from afar and we were both wondering why they were so darn busty! When we rolled out of high school there was the occasional full-figured gal, but when my kids got out of high school I couldn't see one waif! Waif-ness used to be very, very common. (think Audrey Hepburn). You didn't remain a waif forever, typically some time in your twenties or early thirties you filled out, it might not happen until after your first child.
When it came to gentleman callers, I was often surprised at the death of dating. Group get-togethers of young people seem to be the norm now, instead of one man pursuing one woman, proving himself to her, getting to know her family etc.
When I used to pass the football squad practicing , I was surprised at the number of young men who were overweight. We had only one very overweight guy on my football squad in the 70's. And that was from a class of 600 kids.