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Taurine - wow (TUDCA?)
Prior to my Toxin A discovery a couple months ago, I was taking a lot of different supplements. Once I discovered the VitA hypothesis, I changed my diet to eliminate all VitA & majorly cut back on the supplements I was taking as a complete overhaul to reconstruct my daily routine. Prior to the low VitA diet, I was taking 2g of taurine per day. NAC (n-acetyl cysteine) has always been a staple in my supplement regimen, and after digging deeper into the mechanics of how Taurine is manufactured endogenously from Cysteine (Taurine & Glutathione being the most noteworthy byproducts), I decided to drop the Taurine as I considered it redundant & in a fragile state wanted to have the ability to directly correlate outcomes with a controlled regime.
After stumbling upon some thought provoking comments in the Ray Peat forum, Reddit, Accutane, Facebook, Liver Disease, and Carnivore community, I revisited the science of Taurine and it's physiological impact. I was surprised it hasn't been talked about much here, considering the Accutane community seems to regard it with some reverence.
I consumed 10g of Taurine yesterday (essential 0 toxicology and this dose is not extraordinary as it may seem). This morning, I am having the best morning I have had in months. Unmistakably. Absolutely no placebo. For months, I have struggled to string together complex thoughts, and I find communication arduous. I work in tech, and my capacity to analyze data and code has plummeted. I consider myself a decently intelligent guy, and VitA has ruined my cognitive capacity. This morning it feels like the lights have turned on. On the edge of my mental periphery, I sense...happiness. The effect is profound, and my speculation that Taurine would be beneficial appears to be validated (albeit it is very soon and this conclusion may change).
The purpose of this post is to (hopefully) collect personal anecdotes from those who currently use Taurine or have in the past. Also, if you have any experience with TUDCA that would be helpful considering the effect of these substances majorly overlaps. Additionally, I wanted to get a general conversation started regarding Taurine (and perhaps TUDCA or other circumferential substances). Any conjecture based on supplemented studies would be much appreciated.
What I want to avoid in this thread: Please do not divert conversation to discussion about the dangers of acetylated amino acids like NAC. NAC has been paramount to past recovery from chronic health issues. I believe it is one of the most valuable substances someone could potentially add to their health arsenal with virtually zero risk below 2g (especially if someone has an allele for cystic fibrosis or MTHFR abnormality). Using acetylated amino acids as medical interventions is leagues safer than pharmaceutical drugs or plant medicines. I've seen the few studies on oxidative stress, and I believe it is big pharma distraction. The FDA's recent action against NAC is honestly hilarious and obvious to me. God forbid we allow the "peasants" to use an acetylated amino acid with over 50+ studies demonstrating respiratory benefit during a respiratory virus pandemic...but I digress. So please stay on topic 🙂
Here are some noteworthy things:
- Taurine's effects as an anxiolytic on GABA A receptors. Connection between GABA, parasympathetic nervous system, VitA, liver signaling? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14737175.2019.1593827
- Taurine's ability to increase acetaldehyde dehydrogenase and therefore reduce acetaldehyde after alcohol intake https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10821139/
- Taurine's ability to mitigate VA toxicity symptoms in rats. Interestingly, the 50,000IU+Taurine group had less vitamin A in the liver than the 25,000IU group that didn't get any taurine, but had higher serum and kidney levels. Unfortunately they only hint at what they think the taurine is doing. "Taurine is a special amino acid, which possesses an amino group and a sulfonate group. These functional groups might bind with vitamin A, and then stimulate the excretion of such compounds."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0308814607005420 - A diet rich in taurine, cysteine, folate, B12 and betaine may lessen risk for Alzheimer's disease by boosting brain synthesis of hydrogen sulfide. Brain levels of SAM are about half as high in AD patients as in controls, and this is thought to explain the reduction of brain H2S in these patients. These considerations suggest that supplementation with cysteine, taurine, and agents which promote methyl group availability - such as SAM, folate, vitamin B12, and betaine - may have potential for boosting brain synthesis of H2S and thereby aiding AD prevention. Indeed, most of these agents have already demonstrated utility in mouse AD models - albeit the extent to which increased H2S synthesis contributes to this protection remains unclear. Moreover, prospective epidemiology has associated low dietary or plasma levels of folate, B12, and taurine with increased dementia risk. Google H2S, Retinol, and Methionine. I plan on diving into this more.
- In a study of 22 healthy middle-aged women, 3g daily Taurine supplementation for 4 weeks lowered homocysteine levels. Since homocysteine is correlated with heart disease, taurine may help prevent heart attacks or high cholesterol [8].
- Consumption of 3 g Taurine daily for 2 months in hypertension patients reduced both systolic and diastolic blood pressure [12]. Taurine supplementation can help manage fat absorption in cystic fibrosis patients [65]. (I have 1 allele for cystic fibrosis).
- Taurines' ability to increase Fat oxidation by 16% during endurance exersice https://journals.humankinetics.com/view/journals/ijsnem/20/4/article-p322.xml
Speculation: Using Taurine with NAC because NAC is a precursor to Taurine and it would potentially allow more NAC to synthesize into Glutathione. I have some specific examples where this conceptual understanding of biomechanics is true in other biological instances, but I will need to find it (I have a 500+ page document I've added to over the years).
Speculation: The liver attaches sulfate to various things, so I wonder if Taurine increases the livers ability to do this, or simply provides the sulfate? I'm still trying to further understand the sulfate, Phase 3, and retinol by products thing.
I love sending an excipient free solution of NAC & MSM up the bunghole (coffee enema who?) and have done it for years on occasion (with better results than I ever got from a Coffee Enema). The stigma surrounding enemas and butt stuff is wild considering it is basically the equivalent of IV. For example, you can use Reduced Glutathione (the cheap version) in your own homemade suppositories or enema to create an absorption effect similar to paying big $$$ for an IV at a clinic (I've done both). This is in contrast to oral administration of non-liposomal Glutathione. Currently, trying to understand if Taurine added to a solution would add any benefit other than the sulphur. Butyrate enemas are a thing. Lots to study this weekend.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jphs1951/2/2/2_2_149/_pdf
Taurine is a legitimate antidote for Hypervitaminosis A. I would never recommend supraphysiological doses of it though.
Red Bull is the main way people get supplemental taurine in their diet. I've noticed that Red Bull gets more bad press than coffee, it does contain more caffeine than coke but contains slightly less than coffee.
Drinking just one energy drink is enough to cause heart problems, study warns
They singled out caffeine, taurine, sugar and other herbal ingredients, warning they damage the lining of arteries and veins.
Experiments showed just one and a half hours after drinking an energy drink, a person’s blood vessels had narrowed.
Ultrasound measurements revealed before guzzling the drink, a person’s vessel dilation was 5.1% in diameter. That shrank to just 2.8% afterward, “suggesting acute impairment in vascular function,” the scientists warned.
I have a problem with: "taurine, sugar and other herbal ingredients".
Ok, sure caffeine can be implicated as being harmful but the scientific consensus on coffee is that it isn't harmful to heart health. Seems biased.
Thanks for the comment @tim-2 !
"I would never recommend supraphysiological doses of it though." What do you see as the risks and why do you think it may be harmful?
Yea, I'm of the opinion that coffee/caffeine is the most culturally accepted toxin that there is. It's almost impossible to heal while the sympathetic nervous system is activated. Not to say there are some biomarkers that show positive implications, but overall I think it is a substance that ultimately hinders an individual's biological potential. Especially in men, the effect on DHEA is troublesome. Effect on parathyroid is unpredictable. Most people that go psychotic/feel awful on a ketogenic diet are typically those that also drink caffeine. The capacity to thrive in ketosis is greatly increased by eliminating substances that activate the sympathetic nervous system. Personally, if I attempt to eat a ketogenic diet while also drinking coffee, I verge on panic attacks while having no problem at all when non-caffeinated. Caffeine is hardly isolated as a variable in clinical trials, and I believe this is a contributing factor that explains the disconnect between confounding results.
Taken lots of taurine, bile acids and TUDCA in the past before attempting low VA, never really notice anything good or bad. Wonder if after 3 years now, it would be more beneficial.
Hi @orion
So you tried the supplements before getting on the low VA diet, but ceased them after getting on the diet? I would hypothesize the effects would be much more pronounced if someone was following a low VA diet while coadministering all of those substances. That way they are steadily depleting their reserves.
@luke I do agree it could be better to try now, but I am so wary of supplements as my sleep is a very delicate balance, and I have messed it up so many many times with simple supplements. But I may try a one off larger dose of Taurine, see what happens, still have lots of hand.
Glycine was the last supplement to give me a few days of insomnia!
Interesting! I sometimes take up to 10g of Glycine per day, but typically around 3g. I hope that one day we can scientifically fully rationalize the disparate results people get from supplements and foods. Well wishes on your healing journey!
I last researched taurine in 2019 and I don't remember seeing any major risks. My conclusion was that boosting my dietary intake may be a good idea but that taking amounts in vast excess to normal dietary intakes was unwise. Sorry I can't be more specific, perhaps my concern is unjustified. That's my general philosophy of healing though, to gently assist health to improve over time and being very conservative to ensure that the reward of any medicine vastly outweighs any risk.
To illustrate I will use vitamin C as an example. Synthetic vitamin C contains some of the D-enantiomer which doesn't occur in nature. It's unknown what effect this has on our health.
Vitamin C is purely the L-enantiomer of ascorbate; the opposite D-enantiomer has no physiological significance
https://www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Vitamin_C
Supplemental vitamin C also increases the production of oxalate in our body.
As described by Ralli et al. [11] in the 1930s, vitamin C is excreted by the kidneys by filtration and active tubular reabsorption. The metabolism of vitamin C to oxalate was later described in the 1960s by other investigators [12, 13]. Since then, there have been several case reports in the literature mentioning acute oxalate nephropathy in association with excessive vitamin C intake.
Vitamin C-Induced Oxalate Nephropathy
Vitamin C like all other nutrient affects nutrient balance in the body, for example it affects copper and iron levels.
Lastly, will vitamin C synthesized using chemical processes in a factory really be no different to that found in nature? What energetic or even subtle physical differences beyond the realm of current scientific understanding might there be?
These arguments may sound too subtle to be of concern but that's my conservative approach. Vitamin C is an important nutrient for promoting health so my approach would be to avoid low amounts in the diet but never to supplement long term. I've read through the discussion of how the RDA was established and it seems sound to me.
Because the body is so complex and we can never know all of the effects of any medicine I believe that my approach has a sound basis. There are many nutrients that are helpful for treating Hypervitaminosis A. Taurine, various B vitamins, vitamin C, D, E and K2 all help. It's a good idea to gently boost the levels of all of these nutrients when depleting vitamin A.
I’ve discovered over the past several months that dietary Taurine leads to hydrogen sulfide gas production in my colon, and often leads to equally foul smelling diarrhea. The effects usually begin within 12 hours of consumption. Aside from supplemental Taurine, I’ve also identified heart, sirloin beef steaks, and turkey and chicken (leg meat and drippings) as foods that contain enough to cause me GI symptoms.
At first I thought I wasn’t absorbing larger amounts of Taurine. However, I don’t seem to malabsorb other amino acids, I don’t appear to have problems with sulfur metabolism, and it would make little sense for a body with Vitamin A toxicity to not absorb every last bit of Taurine it could get.
Therefore, I am now hypothesizing that my body is rapidly attaching that dietary Taurine to Vitamin A in the liver, and when it reaches the colon the Taurine is being consumed by bacteria and converted to hydrogen sulfide gas, leaving the Vitamin A unbound to aggravate the intestinal lining and cause inflammatory diarrhea.
I now also surmise that I am chronically deficient in Taurine due to my liver using it all to bind up Vitamin A. This could explain my chronic muscle twitching and cramping that does not respond to electrolyte supplementation, as Taurine is supposedly critical to getting magnesium and potassium into the cells. I’m sure it could explain a number of other symptoms as well.
This all begs the question…is there a way for me to supplement Taurine without getting the awful GI symptoms I’m currently getting from it? I’ve been taking probiotics off and on for a while (spore-based, Lactobacillus, and Bifidobacterium), so it doesn’t seem like those are going to help. I’ve tried increasing my fiber intake and that doesn’t seem to help, although it’s possible that taking more of a specific kind might prove helpful in shifting the colonic bacteria away from sulfur lovers.
However, if Taurine is used to conjugate bile acids, and fiber binds to bile acids, then I think there is a serious concern about fiber reducing Taurine levels via the wasting of bile acids. I’m OK with the idea that fiber can be used as a medicine, but any long-term use of medicine increases the odds of making the body even worse than when you started. Given that our body naturally recycles bile acids (not bile, but bile acids) at an extremely high rate, and this is not a mistake, it is hard to believe that eating a bunch of fiber that prevents the reuptake up bile acids is really a good thing in the long run.