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Testing Liver After 8 months on diet.

I am currenty experimenting with some high Vitamin A foods. This includes dairy foods, green, vegetables, and liver. The reason is I have been craving chicken liver pate lately. I’ve been starting out with a small amount spread onto bread, along with roast beef as a sandwich.  Last time I tried out liver in Jan, it did not go over so well. I’m thinking since the sun is out and spring is starting, it might not be so bad. Overall, I’m still limiting my portions and keeping track of progress.  If I experience negative effects again, I’ll report. So far, I’ve experience no digestive issues and no skin flare ups in the last few days. Mentally, I feel the same.

Hi YH I am curious how long it takes for the body to start showing signs of VA issues. Once you have been low VA for a year (?)and then trying these foods, you may not show signs straight away. Just wondering.

The symptoms I had with Vitamin A always seem to start out as sun sensitivity, headaches, followed by body aches, then a rash. The headaches usually start the next day after having some high Vitamin A food. The rashes take about a week to develop. I did a similar experiment in January, and the results weren't so great. I was eating more dairy fat including heavy cream and butter, which I suspect may have been the issue. I've been keeping dietary fat very low for the last few months(the fat on lean turkey and lean beef, tiny amounts of butter, small servings of milk products, a teaspoon or so of sunflower oil). Last time, I started feeling nausea and terrible headaches within a day. This time, with less than 50 grams of fat a day, feels very different. I have not been feeling any sun sensitivity like last time, nor any ocular pain like last time. In fact, my vision feels even better after consuming some Pate. It's too early to comment. I'm hoping I don't have issues, but I don't plan to eat Pate consecutively to push this too far.

 

Still no symptoms from chicken liver pate. I plan on trying it again in two weeks.

I've been including green vegetables a few times of week. I've also been having a some butter, yogurt, cheese, and milk everyday, and I've reduced my meat consumption to about 3-4 oz a day. I've been feeling and looking even better. My eyes look less dark and my pupils are not dilated(this is one thing I've just noticed, is that my pupils were very dilated with no Vitamin A in my diet). My skin has remained very clear and actually looks paler, despite the dairy consumption. No breakouts, itchiness, or headaches. I think this is because I've been keeping my fat intake low in order to reduce absorption of vitamin A(and iron, heavy metals, and other things.)

I think my trouble has been with plant forms of Vitamin A, beta carotene and whatever the hell is in tomatoes and peppers. Green vegetables seem more balanced than fruits, and cause me way less issues. I plan on continuing to avoid oranges, peaches, apricots, carrots, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peppers(except green). I will eat some vegetables with discretion and moderation. This also applies to dairy, which I plan to continue eating as long as I keep my overall fat intake low.

Starches(bread and potatoes mostly), dates, black olives, legumes, lamb, and beef still form the backbone of my diet.

 

Disclaimer: I just want to add the my experience is a little different than most people who have serious issues with Vitamin A. I never supplemented with Vitamin A, because it left blood spots on my arm and burned my skin the only time I tried it. I also never took accutane growing up. My exposure to Vitamin A was from cereals and milk as a kid. Thankfully my mom switched me over to cookies and milk coffee when I was about 12, thus, ending my relationship with fruity pebbles and Vitamin A palmitate. My issues became bad because my family begin eating a lot of tomato, sweet potato, squash based meals while reducing meat consumption. The addition of drinking orange juice and eating plenty of fruits during the day only seemed to exasperate the issues.  This is probably because I am a poor convertor of beta carotene, in addition to having higher levels of blood levels of retinol than normal.

 

Quote from YH on April 2, 2019, 11:42 am

Still no symptoms from chicken liver pate. I plan on trying it again in two weeks.

I've been including green vegetables a few times of week. I've also been having a some butter, yogurt, cheese, and milk everyday, and I've reduced my meat consumption to about 3-4 oz a day. I've been feeling and looking even better. My eyes look less dark and my pupils are not dilated(this is one thing I've just noticed, is that my pupils were very dilated with no Vitamin A in my diet). My skin has remained very clear and actually looks paler, despite the dairy consumption. No breakouts, itchiness, or headaches. I think this is because I've been keeping my fat intake low in order to reduce absorption of vitamin A(and iron, heavy metals, and other things.)

I think my trouble has been with plant forms of Vitamin A, beta carotene and whatever the hell is in tomatoes and peppers. Green vegetables seem more balanced than fruits, and cause me way less issues. I plan on continuing to avoid oranges, peaches, apricots, carrots, sweet potatoes, tomatoes, peppers(except green). I will eat some vegetables with discretion and moderation. This also applies to dairy, which I plan to continue eating as long as I keep my overall fat intake low.

Starches(bread and potatoes mostly), dates, black olives, legumes, lamb, and beef still form the backbone of my diet.

 

Disclaimer: I just want to add the my experience is a little different than most people who have serious issues with Vitamin A. I never supplemented with Vitamin A, because it left blood spots on my arm and burned my skin the only time I tried it. I also never took accutane growing up. My exposure to Vitamin A was from cereals and milk as a kid. Thankfully my mom switched me over to cookies and milk coffee when I was about 12, thus, ending my relationship with fruity pebbles and Vitamin A palmitate. My issues became bad because my family begin eating a lot of tomato, sweet potato, squash based meals while reducing meat consumption. The addition of drinking orange juice and eating plenty of fruits during the day only seemed to exasperate the issues.  This is probably because I am a poor convertor of beta carotene, in addition to having higher levels of blood levels of retinol than normal.

 

Thanks for detailing your experience. I had a tomato incident last Saturday. It's a bit of a long story on why I was in a situation where I felt it necessary to eat some tomato sauce but needless to say I will not let that happen again. What I noticed was blurry vision by the next morning, worse sleep the night of the incident, some fatigue and brain fog. I recovered quickly though.

Did you find out from your genetics that you are a poor converter? I'm just curious because I have 3 areas related to vitamin A/carotenoid metabolism that seem abnormal on my genetic raw data and I'm trying to figure it out. Not that knowing will necessarily change anything but it might help me make more sense of everything I have gone through.

I took a genetic test from 23andme, and used Promethease to breakdown the data. Along with issues with beta carotene, I'm also more likely to be a smoker and a drinker(Ironically, I suffered badly because I was a good "healthy" kid and avoided alcohol most of my life and only started smoking cigarettes at age 26). It seems like people with beta carotene issues are more likely to self medicate. I do think the genetics and even recent family history will help you figure out the diet that works best for you. I think different people vary in their response to different forms of Vitamin A.

For example, I'm having different responses to various forms of Vitamin A. I first noticed this when I tried raw heavy cream about four months into the diet. My orange/yellow caretonemia vanished. I think the Vitamin A is actually replacing the beta carotene that is built in the body. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I know that carotenes from colored fruits and vegetables affects me pretty strongly. Foods rich in Lutein don't seem to have such a strong effect. I can consume Durum wheat with no ill response. Additionally, I'm coming to realize that excessive fat intake will exasperate the problem as well(I also have genetic variation which says I'd do best on a low fat diet).

YH, that's interesting. I've been plowing through abstracts today, trying to get better visibility on the Butyrate subject, and I ran across this one.

Int Immunopharmacol. 2016 Nov      https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27567245

High fat diet exacerbates dextran sulfate sodium induced colitis through disturbing mucosal dendritic cell homeostasis

Quote from YH on April 2, 2019, 1:50 pm

I took a genetic test from 23andme, and used Promethease to breakdown the data. Along with issues with beta carotene, I'm also more likely to be a smoker and a drinker(Ironically, I suffered badly because I was a good "healthy" kid and avoided alcohol most of my life and only started smoking cigarettes at age 26). It seems like people with beta carotene issues are more likely to self medicate. I do think the genetics and even recent family history will help you figure out the diet that works best for you. I think different people vary in their response to different forms of Vitamin A.

For example, I'm having different responses to various forms of Vitamin A. I first noticed this when I tried raw heavy cream about four months into the diet. My orange/yellow caretonemia vanished. I think the Vitamin A is actually replacing the beta carotene that is built in the body. I don't know if this is good or bad, but I know that carotenes from colored fruits and vegetables affects me pretty strongly. Foods rich in Lutein don't seem to have such a strong effect. I can consume Durum wheat with no ill response. Additionally, I'm coming to realize that excessive fat intake will exasperate the problem as well(I also have genetic variation which says I'd do best on a low fat diet).

Fascinating YH. I'm fairly certain I have impaired conversion of beta carotene. Someone told me what to look for in my raw data from 23&me. I plan to do Prometheas or self decode when I have the extra money. I'm a former 30 year off and on smoker, I've had the golden hue to my skin most of my life and my mom had this as does my daughter (all smokers). I seem to do well with fats of any kind but can't tolerate dairy or gluten. It's amazing how we are all so different. I decided a while back that if I were going test VA at some point it would probably be with chicken liver so it's pretty cool to read that was your choice as well.

Here's my genetic info YH if you or anyone has opinions.

BCO1 | rs12934922 | MAF: 0.227 AA (I’m T/T)
The A (major) allele is associated with:
  • Normal levels of vitamin A in the body
BCO1 , PKD1L2 | rs6564851 | MAF: 0.476 GG (I’m G/T)
The G (major) allele is associated with:
  • Increased levels of vitamin A
BCO1 | rs6420424 | MAF: 0.435 AA (I’m A/G)
The A (major) allele is associated with:
  • Reduced conversion efficiency of beta-carotene to vitamin A
BCO1 | rs7501331 | MAF: 0.152 CC (I’m C/C)
The C (major) allele is associated with:
  • Normal levels of vitamin A in the body

Hey @Bella, I scooped up my results to see how they compare, and I included the description that was provided on Promethease:

rs12934922-rs12934922(A;T)

Reduced conversion of beta-carotene to retinol Associated with Rs7501331 and reduced BCMO1, lower ability to convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters and higher serum beta-carotene levels. See also Rs7501331
rs12934922 (R267S) and rs7501331 (A379V) double mutant have a reduced catalytic activity of beta-carotene by 57%. Female volunteers carrying the T variant of rs7501331 (379V) had a 32% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene, and those carrying at least one T in both SNPs show a 69% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene into retinyl esters. rs7501331: the frequency of the wild-type C allele and variant T allele was 76 and 24%, respectively; 56% of the population was CC wild-type genotype, and 39% was heterozygote CT with the TT variant present in 5% of the population. rs12934922: the frequency of the wild-type A allele and variant T allele was 58 and 42%, respectively; 38% of the population was AA wild-type genotype, 40% was heterozygote AT, and 22% was TT homozygote 
 more info
normal
rs6564851(G) associated with higher beta-carotene (p = 1.6 x 10(-24)) and alpha-carotene (p = 0.0001) levels and lower lycopene (0.003), zeaxanthin (p = 1.3 x 10(-5)), and lutein (p = 7.3 x 10(-15)) levels, with effect sizes ranging from 0.10-0.28 SDs per allele. Note that low plasma levels of carotenoids and tocopherols are associated with increased risk of chronic disease and disability, yet dietary intake of these lipid-soluble antioxidant vitamins is only poorly correlated with plasma levels, leading to the hypothesis that it isn't what you eat, it's your SNPs that regulate your carotenoid levels. This is one of the SNPs reported by NutraHacker SNPs. 
 more info
This is one of the SNPs reported by NutraHacker SNPs. Common variation in the beta-carotene 15,15'-monooxygenase 1 gene affects circulating levels of carotenoids: a genome-wide association study.
Reduced conversion of beta-carotene to retinol Associated with Rs7501331 and reduced BCMO1, lower ability to convert beta-carotene to retinyl esters and higher serum beta-carotene levels. See also Rs7501331
rs12934922 (R267S) and rs7501331 (A379V) double mutant have a reduced catalytic activity of beta-carotene by 57%. Female volunteers carrying the T variant of rs7501331 (379V) had a 32% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene, and those carrying at least one T in both SNPs show a 69% lower ability to convert Beta-carotene into retinyl esters. rs7501331: the frequency of the wild-type C allele and variant T allele was 76 and 24%, respectively; 56% of the population was CC wild-type genotype, and 39% was heterozygote CT with the TT variant present in 5% of the population. rs12934922: the frequency of the wild-type A allele and variant T allele was 58 and 42%, respectively; 38% of the population was AA wild-type genotype, 40% was heterozygote AT, and 22% was TT homozygote