Quote from Tommy on June 28, 2023, 10:33 pm

@david

Awesome thanks David.

Quote from Shannon on July 3, 2023, 7:25 pm

Quote from Andrew B on June 9, 2023, 9:46 am

Thank God somebody created this thread ! LOL

When I first began the vitamin A reduction diet I felt a bit heavy after eating eggs. I think it was not digesting fat well enough or it was a sulphur related issue. So early on I didnt increase the eggs. I had no incentive or information justifying more. Then I became more convinced eggs might be part of the solution. Then when they started working I reasoned it might be choline and sphingomyelin. It also turns out eggs have biotin, selenium, iodine and phosphatidylcholine. So I suggested eggs rather than supplementing choline as that covered what was giving the benefit.

Sometimes when I got to 5 eggs a day there was diarrhea and so I immediately slowed things down again. If somebody tells you to eat eggs then you are prone to keep on with the extra eggs. It's not so much intuition as dont keep pushing the wrong number. That's why my advice has said dont go above 5 because of this issue. And for some it might be constipation it seems. Have too much of any food and you might be susceptible to food intolerances when doing vit A reduction and having leakiness issues. Usually food intolerances get better except where too strong a detox was created. Younger women without genetic issues might need less eggs 1 or 2 a day might be all that's needed.

It could be low B1, low taurine, low magnesium or low potassium causing constipation. Taurine helps muscle contraction and relaxation and may be relevant. Acetylcholine helps digestive motility hence B1 also needed. The extra eggs might need more of these nutrients. Eggs contrary to what the weird Doctor has told us definitely do not slow down the detox. It gets stronger and stronger as the choline is replenished and/or the bile flows better with the phosphatidylcholine. So if you think this is going too slow I'll increase the eggs then eventually you'll get an even bigger surprise. I spent a lot of the time trying to slow the detox down with less protein, more carbs, less zinc, less beef, less selenium (in the eggs now). Take your time to see if 1 or 2 or 3 eggs is enough before pushing on with more. Absorption is another inconvenient truth. With eggs this appears to improve and your supplements may be too strong. 

A lot of factors can go wrong. Stronger detox and eggs improve detox but has a little going back in the body with permeability that takes time to fix. A long time. Hence you dont want to hurry when you know leakiness or indeed poor bile flow is your problem. Fibre, moderate fat and taurine may all be needed eventually to fix leakiness.

I've been mulling over the paradox of eggs / choline improving detox versus the lowering of gut permeability.

When I say paradox, I mean...the more choline and bile flow one encourages, the more toxic bile wrecks the upper GI causing more permiability (and increasing the symptoms caused by toxic bile floating thru the body)

If eggs somehow encouraged GI healing that outweighed this damage, it would work its way out. I am skeptical.

Unfortunately, I have tried twice now, and have unleashed too much of a flood to be able to continue the experiment. Maybe some people have too much of a certain array of carotenoids or retinoids stored and just have to take the slow boat for a while until hopping on a faster boat.

This last time, I just did the equivalent of 2 eggs worth of sunflower lecithin.

The first time, I did an egg daily for three days before I couldn't take the tinnitus and head pains which continued for about a week before bile seemed to slow back down.

Quote from Andrew B on July 4, 2023, 2:15 am

@shannon I'd like to address this because I think it's slightly different from what you've said. I'm a n=1 so it might be correct for me and different for you. That's possible but I think it's not happening the way you suggest. By eating eggs throughout the detox I never got such severe problems as other people until I increased the beans too much. I got the skin peeling at the start but that was my specific problem related to the bleeding capillaries. You get more choline and it encourages bile flow but there's also a degree more of protection from the toxic bile because of the phosphatidylcholine in the egg. And the lysophosphatidylcholine and/or phosphatidylcholine is very high in eggs.

So what is happening I think is the improved flow is causing more leakage because the permeability has not been fixed straight away. An example: if flow was 5 before and leakage was 10% then you might get 0.5 toxic bile going into the body whereas bile flow has increased to 10 with an egg and you're getting say 7% leakage then 0.7 toxic bile is getting into the body. Over time the percentage keeps coming down but also bile flow tends to increase/improve. Increase the fibre and bile flow increases again until more leakage is fixed. Then you increase fat a bit and same thing happens. That's my pattern and detox seems stronger but over time less leakage. The body in its wisdom decides how much toxins can go safely in the bile based on leakiness too.

For you this increase in bile flow and/or your leakiness is too much for you. Some other people experience the same. Possibly a need to go slower (1/3-1/4 an egg yolk a day even) and/or a need for betaine to save choline better. Betaine will also help the leakiness.

Bile viscosity is directly proportional to density. Porcine bile viscosity is proportional to density - PubMed (nih.gov)

Adding phosphatidylcholine helped intestinal mucosa. Role of biliary phosphatidylcholine in bile acid protection and NSAID injury of the ileal mucosa in rats - Gastroenterology (gastrojournal.org)

Quote from Shannon on July 4, 2023, 7:27 am

Quote from Andrew B on July 4, 2023, 2:15 am

@shannon I'd like to address this because I think it's slightly different from what you've said. I'm a n=1 so it might be correct for me and different for you. That's possible but I think it's not happening the way you suggest. By eating eggs throughout the detox I never got such severe problems as other people until I increased the beans too much. I got the skin peeling at the start but that was my specific problem related to the bleeding capillaries. You get more choline and it encourages bile flow but there's also a degree more of protection from the toxic bile because of the phosphatidylcholine in the egg. And the lysophosphatidylcholine and/or phosphatidylcholine is very high in eggs.

So what is happening I think is the improved flow is causing more leakage because the permeability has not been fixed straight away. An example: if flow was 5 before and leakage was 10% then you might get 0.5 toxic bile going into the body whereas bile flow has increased to 10 with an egg and you're getting say 7% leakage then 0.7 toxic bile is getting into the body. Over time the percentage keeps coming down but also bile flow tends to increase/improve. Increase the fibre and bile flow increases again until more leakage is fixed. Then you increase fat a bit and same thing happens. That's my pattern and detox seems stronger but over time less leakage. The body in its wisdom decides how much toxins can go safely in the bile based on leakiness too.

For you this increase in bile flow and/or your leakiness is too much for you. Some other people experience the same. Possibly a need to go slower (1/3-1/4 an egg yolk a day even) and/or a need for betaine to save choline better. Betaine will also help the leakiness.

Bile viscosity is directly proportional to density. Porcine bile viscosity is proportional to density - PubMed (nih.gov)

Adding phosphatidylcholine helped intestinal mucosa. Role of biliary phosphatidylcholine in bile acid protection and NSAID injury of the ileal mucosa in rats - Gastroenterology (gastrojournal.org)

Andrew, appreciate the consideration and response as always!

There are definitely many ways to work oneself out of this pickle we have gotten ourselves in with high stored levels of fat soluble substances. A digression, but I believe this is wider than just getting rid of the retinol pathway metabolites. Though, I have no way to quantify or track this.

In any case, I have definitely aligned with the path of providing the highest throughput thru the bile -> sol.fiber/charcoal -> pooping route. 

Though, I do understand that without enough feedback from what is being re-absorbed, the liver (and other tissues) will INCREASE their output leading to a higher amount of free VitA floating thru the system. And, my now ~60g of Soluble fiber (from beans, oatmeal, apples, bananas, and a scoop of Sunfiber) + ~2g of charcoal may be blocking this signal encouraging more to be released.

But, it mostly works for me. Most days I have a clear head and tolerable tinnitus. Though, I do top up Betaine (TMG - 1.5-2g) along with Citi Choline (250mg). The Citi Choline is more that it gets to the brain versus being used more in the liver like PC seems to.

Nevertheless, this does warrant some thought. Perhaps I'd have a better journey if I allowed the re-absorption signal to be stronger by lowering fiber while being able to increase flow and viscosity with PC. The increase in flow and viscosity would reduce the possible inflammation that is occurring in the bile ducts / biliary tubes while being able to increase total Choline in the body. Then, ratchet back up fiber.

I like your usage of math to illustrate. That really helps tell the tale!

Quote from Andrew B on July 4, 2023, 8:49 am

@shannon I think I see what might be happening now. What I suggest to people is to back off the detox almost completely while trying to replenish choline. What might be happening with the egg is that you already have a strong detox with all the fibre and betaine. It's possibly a bit frustrating when I suggest this to people because it means accepting the max fibre approach is the wrong order to do things. You've possibly triggered strong detox with vA very low as well. You could try doing all the things you are doing and then introducing an egg may work as it has for others. You are doing the betaine part which is a big help and possibly creating the strong detox too. The second stage I recommend after choline is the cruciferous vegetables particularly for the gut microbiome. The oatmeal and beans may be causing a strong detox. You might benefit from a taurine food such as chicken thighs or turkey thighs if not got that covered. 

Incidentally, condensed tannins I posted about prevent so much fat being re absorbed as I posted in nerve pain thread. Yes the dreaded polyphenols 🙂  Characterizing the Interactions of Dietary Condensed Tannins with Bile Salts | Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (acs.org)

Quote from Shannon on July 4, 2023, 5:57 pm

Quote from Andrew B on July 4, 2023, 8:49 am

@shannon I think I see what might be happening now. What I suggest to people is to back off the detox almost completely while trying to replenish choline. What might be happening with the egg is that you already have a strong detox with all the fibre and betaine. It's possibly a bit frustrating when I suggest this to people because it means accepting the max fibre approach is the wrong order to do things. You've possibly triggered strong detox with vA very low as well. You could try doing all the things you are doing and then introducing an egg may work as it has for others. You are doing the betaine part which is a big help and possibly creating the strong detox too. The second stage I recommend after choline is the cruciferous vegetables particularly for the gut microbiome. The oatmeal and beans may be causing a strong detox. You might benefit from a taurine food such as chicken thighs or turkey thighs if not got that covered. 

Incidentally, condensed tannins I posted about prevent so much fat being re absorbed as I posted in nerve pain thread. Yes the dreaded polyphenols   Characterizing the Interactions of Dietary Condensed Tannins with Bile Salts | Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (acs.org)

I am processing this...but, honestly it is hard to evaluate the relative progress and feelings I would go thru if I switched paths, at this point.

One of my hang-ups is the possible forming of A2E (Vitamin A combined with Ethanolamine) which is far more damaging than free retinol. I have a good hunch that I have filled my brain with carotenoids and retinoids near the end of my high-Vitamin A journey. I was CHEWING UP high dose fish oil and krill oil. So much so that it impacted my voice making it painful to talk (and also making my brain feel dizzy and head-pressure, at times). I imagine much of the retinol forms absorbed locally and made it into brain tissue handily. (an aside, I did the high dose fish oil to help recover from a minor TBI, oh the irony!!!)

https://weakthereforestrong.com/altered-vitamin-a-metabolism-and-neurological-decline/

Like you, she does recommend holding Vitamin A at ~RDA levels while replenishing choline. Though, the people she helps are young and generally unable to determine their diet like we are. I fear the lecithin route increases ethanolamine too high and contributes to brain damage. I have also taken a couple steps back with brain issues both times I have messed with lecithin (eggs or sunflower)

I will definitely check out your tannin post in the nerve pain thread!

Quote from Deleted user on July 20, 2023, 10:56 pm

Quote from puddleduck on June 13, 2023, 5:14 am

In another thread, @joe said:

“[directed towards myself and a few others] it sounds like your detox was going too fast and the eggs helped slow it down... [Dr. Smith] advised to use them as a brake as needed and to know what we are doing by taking them in.  Long term, there is an increased price to pay in detox.”

It kinda sounds like Dr. Smith is less hostile to eggsperimenting at this point?  I figured he’d come around eventually...

Nah, my detox wasn’t going too fast. For 4 years it had been surprisingly steady, but fairly slow, I think? I’m at the point now where I see that as a good thing. (Btw, I’ve never followed Dr. Smith’s dietary suggestions, like at all. Even though I’m still grateful to him for helping me with my zinc deficiency, I haven’t watched his livestreams for a couple of years now.)

Consuming eggs for three months this year significantly worsened my CFS/POTS, gave me nasty rashes on my legs, re-activated the hemangioma in my eye, and negatively affected my mental health, sleep, digestion, and mensuration experience (lol). So I stopped.

Andrew’s perspective:

“Eggs contrary to what the weird Doctor has told us definitely do not slow down the detox. It gets stronger and stronger as the choline is replenished and/or the bile flows better with the phosphatidylcholine.”

This has seemed plausible to me from the day I first read Andrew’s and Jessica’s threads.

But since I’ve chosen to participate in the free-speech zone, I don’t wanna fall into reactionary “anti-garret” groupthink (that is not to invalidate anyone’s negative feelings towards him, of course), no matter how convincing I might find the arguments against his perspective!

This is why I’d like to see more dialectical thinking applied to Andrew’s assertion in bold. The possibility remains that Dr. Smith is correct in some contexts and not in others, or even correct for the wrong reasons.

Myself as a case study: I was raised without eggs (or refined sugars, or dairy, and refined starches were limited), until teenagehood.

From 2005 to 2018, I consumed eggs under the influence of the Weston A. Price Foundation. Part of that time, I drank “banana nog” every morning (raw whole milk + raw egg yolks + two bananas with no added sugar) and I was still super sick from 2006 onwards.

Eggs didn’t protect me from developing chronic hypervitaminosis A. It’s possible they even contributed to my toxicity in the first place.

That’s how I feel about them right for myself, but I recognize there’s merit in the “well you must’ve had a choline deficiency from childhood” argument (despite all the legumes and whole grains and beef I consumed), which is partly why I persisted in following the WAPF’s recommendations for so long afterwards... I don’t wish to repeat that same mistake now.  

That said, I don’t doubt those who’ve had a positive eggsperience. Maybe some people are better at detoxing the increased vitamin A intake than I am.

 

My WAPF-approved banana nog breakfast:
(603 calories)
3.5 grams fiber + 0.1 mg thiamine + 286 mg choline + 356 mcg Retinol Activity Equivalents (50% of the RDA)

anything is possible

including that the studies garrett sited in a recent livestream are right that eggs increase vA intox and storage.  if there is symptomatic relief in eating eggs then it becomes more likely that liver detox is being slowed down enough for the rest of the excretory organs to catch a break and catch up to speed.  

I am trying to keep it simple.  My goal is to reduce symptoms, increase quality of food, sleep, strength, flexibility, thermal regulation....... and to reduce pain.  That last item gives me an advantage over most.  It is an easy symptom to track and attend to.  In the effort to keep it simple, I work to reduce all supplement intake to zero.  For now, the pain makes clear that current supplement levels and foods (similar to Grant's diet with apples prunes and oatmeal instead of beans) are required to keep improving on all symptoms.  

As to Andrew's and Jenny's theories on choline et al, I need to see more of their evidence that they are correct and less claims that they are correct while others are so wrong.  

Quote from Deleted user on July 20, 2023, 11:12 pm

Quote from puddleduck on June 10, 2023, 8:11 am

Quote from sand on June 10, 2023, 7:25 am

One should not eat eggs because they are a high-VA food. We are here to get rid of VA.

Yeah, and it is probably one of the most absorbable forms of it, too...

The further distance I put between myself and eggs, the better I feel.

Wish it weren’t so, but that’s how it do be.

To expand on your argument, we don’t even necessarily know how much vitamin A is in factory farmed eggs:

“Feeding high levels of vitamins to laying hens can effectively enrich the vitamin component of conventional chicken eggs. Depending on the base supplementation rate, fat soluble vitamins A and K can be increased four- to sixfold...”

— Nelson E. Ward, Chapter 20 of “Egg Innovations and Strategies for Improvements” 

please do not attribute high vA content only to factory farming.  our first 6 years of chickens were fed a lot of my WAPF foods.  one of our first problems was marek's disease.  it is sciatica so severe it kills the bird.  corporate vets attribute it to a virus.  a farmer friend's daughter in vet school told us how to treat it: thiamine supplementation.  this worked.  years before I found Grant and Garrett.  So when I read my first papers on thiamine and vA detox I was jumping up and down (in my mind).  My sacroiliitis and the birds' sciatica have faded in 2023 as we work to minimize vA intake and increase vA removal for us, our dogs and our chickens.  Now I am jumping up and down and so are the birds and dogs.  Sure wish we could eat those eggs the way we used to.  Ironic that the eggs we get now are almost certainly much lower in vA than the ones we got 5 years ago.

Quote from Deleted user on July 20, 2023, 11:32 pm

Quote from Tommy on June 28, 2023, 9:56 am

Quote from Joe on June 25, 2023, 11:03 pm

Quote from puddleduck on June 20, 2023, 7:44 am

Oh wow, what a fascinating connection between the gut microbiome and emulsifiers in CA patients.   (The book I’m reading about the microbiome hasn’t touched on that at all.) Incredible!

Thanks for posting about the potential problem of fat-soluble pollutants in eggs, too.

Commercial dairy and oils are heavily contaminated with phthalates:

Critical Review on the Presence of Phthalates in Food and Evidence of Their Biological Impact
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7460375/

Eggs are less likely to contain high amounts:

“All phthalates except for DnOP, DiNP and DiDP were detected in eggs with low concentrations across studies.”

From: Phthalates and diet: a review of the food monitoring and epidemiology data
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4050989/

I am glad you are focusing your attention on the microbiome, @david, and look forward to your future posts.

The past little while I’ve been wondering if the root of this chronic hypervitaminosis A problem is in the gut. 

It’s super interesting about fat-soluble compounds (including lutein) as presenting a problem for the cells, since diffusion can’t necessarily be prevented...I wonder if that’s what is going on in the gut, too...Like, if dietary lipids will enhance the diffusion of all forms of vitamin A in the gut?

It looks like there’s evidence of there being some sorta “failsafe” mechanism to prevent the body from converting beta carotene into excess retinoic acid:

“Carotenoid uptake by the enterocytes has been considered to occur by passive diffusion for four decades, which was inconsistent with the high inter-individual variability in absorption observed in humans, as well as with the isomer selectivity and the competition for absorption between carotenoids and other fat-soluble micronutrients observed at the intestinal level (see [20] for review). Different teams started to re-explore carotenoid absorption mechanisms in the 2000s and several lipid transporters playing a role in carotenoid uptake by the intestinal cell have since been identified.”

“Crucial factors modulating the expression and/or the activity of intestinal proteins involved in carotenoid absorption are provitamin A carotenoids, through a feedback regulation. Indeed, studies have pointed out that SR-BI activity is partly controlled by retinoids. Using both mouse models and human cell lines, it was specifically shown that retinoic acid produced from dietary precursors by BCO1 induced the expression of the intestinal transcription factor ISX that repressed the expression of both BCO1 [71] and SR-B1 [72], thus impacting both carotenoid conversion and uptake [73]. Additionally, many dietary factors other than retinoids were shown to regulate transporter expression in the intestine and may, thus, indirectly impact on carotenoid absorption.”

Mechanisms of Carotenoid Intestinal Absorption: Where Do We Stand?https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6520933/#B56-nutrients-11-00838

ETA: image file

If memory serves, have seen in last 5 months studies using rats and mice intended to find treatments for celiac disease that scientists running the studies had difficulty inducing gluten intolerance in their subjects.  They repeatedly fed high gluten diets with low rates of gluten sensitivies induced.  Until they fed high retinol diets.  This induced high gut permeability (leaky gut) and when these animals were again fed gluten they induced upwards of 50% gluten sensitivities. 

 

@joe

This is massive. Can you please link one of these studies?

going to take me awhile @tommy.  Garrett talked about it a few times in the last 5 months of LYL livestreams.  He links the studies in the chats.  I will need to go back and find it.  Currently I need to work more at keeping up with current livestreams and cited research.  OR, you could take a look / listen and find it.  Here is a good starting point.  https://www.youtube.com/@NutritionDetective/streams