I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
The false carotenoid conversion factors for vitamin A
Oh man, I just wrote the longest reply ON MY PHONE and the browser crashed right at the end. 🤦♀️
Thank you @pattycake this whole vA topic sure makes the machinery in my brain spin for sure. I have really come to re-evaluate my stand and my personal beliefs after reading numerous studies and anecdotes (not GS often wrongly interpreted drafts of studies). Uncomfortable but necessary. vA being a poison beind our modern diseases is a theory after all, not a religion (even though at times it feels more like a religion in here).
@david thank you so much for taking the time to write such thorough replies (And for the studies). There is so much science doesn't know yet. And the "downside" of science is the results usually is generalized, on a general healthy population (unless specified). Genetic differences not taken into the equation.
Which makes me think of Ancel Keys 7 country study. Finland was included because they had really high CHD death rates among younger lumberjack (i.e. fit, hard working) men. When studying them, they saw their typical diet was a lot of SFA, like cheese thick as bread slices slathered with butter. What they missed though, was if there were any genetic differences behind, because Finland really stood out.
Well, I am half fin. On my mom's side, the men has died young out of the blue in their 50's. They were brought up on a farm on a diet similar to @lil-chick's ancestors (Cows (meat, milk, butter), home made bread and they grew in the summertime potatoes, rutabagas, a bit of salad, and picked berries and mushrooms in the forest). They were all active and healthy, non smokers, devotes christians, calm people, not stressing oner small things but grateful for what they had. They should all have lived a long life, if a natural low A diet was they key.
Well, a few years back we found out our family carries a genetic disease, called PXE. IT is a recessive gene, meaning you need a pair to get symptoms. My mom has one, my dad has one, my 4 siblings has both, I have none. 3 of my siblings have issues with their eyes and my oldest sister with her heart, and my younger brother had a TIA last year and he is in his 30's. This could explain why mom's siblings has died early. It could also explain why Finland stood out regarding CHD, or it could have been something else. Point is, we don't know everyhing and neither does science.
https://www.pxe.org.uk/what-is-pxe/pxe-symptoms/the-cardiovascular-system/
My own stand has changed some. I used to believe all vA was poison in any form. I now believe that carotenoids probably doesn't have to be an issue, if taken in its natural, unadulterated form, like fresh fruits and veggies, chewed, where the pigment is capsuled in with fiber (soluble and insoluble) and important co-factors, probably beneficial for our gut microbiota and therefore beneficial for us. I am still unsure about cooked purées, and cooked with fats, and I am still very sceptical towards powders, blended forms and juices.
I do believe caritenoids being an issue outside of their natural enviroment, such as an isolated color (food coloring) or supplement. I also do believe retinol obtained from animal sources being an issue in excess, like organ meats and products thereof - especially in our time and age where the animals are fed huge amounts of supplements. In Denmark, the levels of Retinol in cow's (or calf's) liver has increased tremendeously since the 1950's - Denmark follow USA Retinol supplementation guidelines for livestock.
Other factors I think plays a huge role in our health, and our bodies ability to run smoothly and handle both endogenous and exogenous detox:
- Enough calories (most women today are constantly on a diet - and probaly men too)
- Enough nutrients - goes with calories. Because in Ancel Keys starvation study, he made sure the participants got their vitamins and minerals covered so he could study starvation only and not also deal with nutiotional deficiencies - but what he also found was that, when refeeding, vitamin supplement had no effect unless enough calories was supplied. So eating enough nutrients on a low calorie diet is not going to result in a healthy body.
- Any form for restrictive diets - whether being carnivore,
low AEdit: Virtually no A (as Grant style), raw food, paleo or whatnot, will probably bite one in the ass sooner or later - Other forms of restrictive diets but with a "this is good so more is better" approach, such as WAPF, Ray Peat... Although I know of one woman getting rid of her endometriosis and living free of it for years now and other ailments while eating WAPF - with liver, meats, veggies, full fat milk and what not. Another anecdote I cannot wrap my head around.
- Supplemets of any form - stimulating and forcing cell response instead of letting the body deal with stuff itself in harmony.
- Adulterated foods - such as processed foods diet (filled with rancid oils, additives, added vitamins/minerals, too much white sugar and lacking fibre and co-factors). This is how most people eat today in the west, more or less.
- Stress - especially combined with a processed foods diet (such as family, financial, work, life, being obsessed with the correct diet etc etc)
- Over-exercising - which is a form for stress.
- Antibiotics (just bad! kills off many of our good bacteria, like oxalobacter - this is what made me super sensitive to oxalate)
- Lack of fiber, EFA and EAA - which probably correlates to restricted diet, restricted calories, stress and processed foods.
Regarding keeping animals - if I were home to take care of them it would be interesting, but it wouldn't necessarity say anything on humans. I used to work with migraine research - when we found something with a positive results in our animals (rats) and got it to human trial, it often stops there because what had an effect in the animals turned out to be useless in humans. And by the way, there are about a hundred different types of headaches (different pathways etc). Quite cool, huh 🙂
But my friend has two rescue guines pigs. They came from an abusive home with no Edit: Two kids showin any respect for them, and they didn't always have food or water. They were both very afraid when my friend got them. Eventually one of them ("One") started to come out from hiding and turned out to be quite social. But the other one ("Two") kept in hiding and anytime anyone came close to the cage Two would flee into hiding. It would also drag its food into hiding with it.
One is dominating Two a lot, which of course pisses Two off. But as the time went by, Two would start eating outside with One, but would still run when anyone came close to the cage. Their feed was good quality hay, a LOT of low A veggies (cucumber and iceberg mostly) and we also picked fresh grass for them in summer. They got vit C supplement sprinkled on food or in water. But Two just never got better. And we did some social therapy as well, picking both up and feeding them in lap, but Two we thought was just mentally damaged and would not get better.
Well, about 6 weeks or so ago I was guinea pig watching for a few days, and I bought them red bell peppers, rich in vitamin C (but remember, they still got vit C supplemented), just as an experiment. And they loved it. They got maybe 100g each evry day. My friend continued on this habit together with their usual iceberg and cucumber. And the other week he said, there has been a difference in the animals. They are calmer, friendlier towards each other, and Two is coming out of its cage more, and doesn't run into hiding anymore. My friend has also been able to pet Two while out of hiding in the cage, as long as he moves slowly. And Two is now also greeting at the "gate" (gate is always open but they never go out) together with One when my friend comes home from work. It is just heart warming 😊
Just another anecdote, but interesting nevertheless 🙂
what a interesting reply @liz, loved it 🙂
I live in Finland and born here although I am Norwegian. It is true that Finland seem to have quite a bit of genetic disease, more that Norwegians.... I wonder if the Finns as a tribe has been pretty isolated and not got too much fresh blood in`? They are not the most social people, so maybe they did not look for marrying outside their own folk(also the finnish language is quite hard to learn and finns have a harder time to learn foreign languages too). So genetic diseases increased. Just a thought I had.
I also believe genetics do play a role in how food affects one. I wonder if the heart diseases in Finland could have ever been prevented and how. It would be really cool if a study would be done how Finns outside this country do health wise, does they carry the same risk if they move abroad?
Quote from Tommy on April 26, 2023, 1:44 amI still don’t understand why ‘no A’ would bite someone in the ass.
My guess would be, and I hope it isn't true for Grant's sake, but my guess would be that possibly VA is used as a weapon. (certain people here are always trying to assure me that it isn't, though)
So imagine a scenario in which a person isn't high on VA like most of us here. And then this person gets something REALLY bad, like a raging antibiotic-resistant infection. Perhaps that person could run down their stores and end up with no VA to fight with; and then perhaps go blind, loose body parts or die?
@tommy while @lil-chicks theory is quite creative, mine is a lot more basic than that. By having such a restrictive diet eating mainly 3 foods (like Grant, although he does switch it up a bit from time to time with the odd Apple and such), might cause food intolerances or sensitivities. I think of Grants onion experiment which had him drop onions again. He dropped them and felt better. Does that mean onions are a toxin for everyone, or do they carry potentially helpful co-factors such as sulphur besides beneficial fiber? Which also leads to carnivores eating nothing but meat, also a very restrictive diet, being unable to eat anything plant again because plants (all plants not just veggies) make them feel like shit (because all plants are poison, or because ruined microbiota, or because missing co-factors in said plants kickstarts something?). Also it can have a mental toll being dietary isolated, creating unwanted conscious or subconscious stress.
There is also still the theory about vA not being a vitamin at all. If it is, then a no A diet will bite one in the ass once all stores ate used up. A no A diet is very hard to achieve though. Grass fed beef having more than conventional beef? But how much is enough, and for how long can ones stores last? Considering the time Grant has been doing this, the likeliness for vA being essential is getting slim, but it is impossible to say as we do not know how much he has stored or how much is in his diet or any possibly genetic factors. What seems to be pretty clear though is the RDI is probably pretty overrated. Either way, a low/moderate A diet is probably a better way to go. More diversity, more flexibility, less stressful and easier to do long term, and one can still get results. At least according to science and anecdotes.
Edit: also, which has been pointed out before, Grant has removed a lot of known allergens/irritants like gluten and dairy and oxalate (black beans has some), he does not eat any fast food, processed foods, sugar and rancid oils. He also get the important soluble fibre x3 daily and he exercise regularly. He does not have a history of antibiotic use or overuse, restrictive dieting, over-exercising or accutane use, and so forth.
Could it be, that for some, getting more nutrition (as in missing co-factors and calories, even if it happens to include some A) is far more important than only dropping A? Without those, A recirculates creating more damage? And could it be, that not all disease is from vA poisoning, some people not getting results is because they are not vA poisoned, a theory that had been driften before. Do we ger vA poisoned because we eat too much of it, or because we don't get enough co-factors, or because of some genetic defect or another?
Which brings me to @inger yes the genetics of isolated areas fascinate me for sure 🙂 Finland is known to be such an area, where rare genetic diseases are overrepresented compared to the rest of the world. Sardinia is another. Sardinia is known for being a blue zone where people live to be 100. But sardinia is also kmown for their genetic diseases and having more autoimmune disease. I think Hashimotos and MS are overrepresented there. Quite interesting...
@
Oh I forgot about the heart disease prevention @inger even though Finland still stand out internstionally internationally they have lowered their frequency of CHD a lot. It can be read about here https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6062761/
And also here, I like this one as it includes interviews 🙂 https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/04/finlands-radical-heart-health-transformation/389766/
@liz, that was an interesting article.
I wonder if the high saturated fat diet with almost no fiber, then paired with huge trauma from war, made lots of adrenalin circulate in the Karelian men´s blood and it could not get cleared out, and that lead to heart disease.... i wonder....
That it was not solely the animal fat that was an issue, but this combination with it was deadly. Stress/trauma, no fiber.
My brothers wifeys family is from Karelia and she often tells about what happened in the war. It was horrendous. It must have traumatized the men really bad. She tells that even if you would have thought you were protected in the deep forest of Finland in small villages, no, you was not.. Russia dropped soldiers from the air over the countryside, and those soldiers went to kill women, men, kids, just like that, they just came into their houses and shot them. No mercy. That must have been so traumatic.
I often wonder what trauma has to do with health, and it think it has huge impact. It makes the liver not work properly, and it cant clear out toxins as it should. Thats why the bean protocol is so good for trauma because the soluble fiber slowly takes out the excess stress hormones and other poisons and so one can start to relax and then the trauma can also heal. Or you get the tools to heal it. Its impossible to heal trauma if you are in fight and flight mode 24/7.
Well, that IS trauma, the inability to deeply relax. I feel the beans are really doing something wonderful in this regard. Thats why I just continue even if I have gained weight and have detox reactions but something feels so good about the beans I cant stop 😉
I suffer from trauma since childhood too, always too much adrenaline in my body....also have made me abuse stimulants, nicotine, caffeine ans also quite a bit of wine! But now I have been able to let go of all those, which is pretty magical! Must be the bean-calm.... 🙂 🙂
Yeah trauma is horrible for sure, damaging for the body and brain and some believe it is permanent (especially hippocampus shrinking, but the brain is plastic so I refuse to accept amything as "permanent") I can relate to your struggles @inger, I have a trauma and PTSD baggage as well. It sucks. I never abused anything "worse" than chocolate, but coped with control and further abusing myself in other ways. I am thankful you no longer need the stimulants. That is fantastic ❤️
My family is from Kuhmo, close to the russian border. My grandfather fought in the war. But the finish Sisu is pretty amazing 💪little Finland against mighty Russia in dead cold winter and they kicked some serious butt! The scarring runds deep though, which is understandable.
Karen Hurd (who has a degree in biochemistry after all) belive SFA damages the DNA and does not recommend any form for SFA at any time, especially not during healing. Could also be that Fins genetically are worse off with a diet high in SFA. I Don't know, can only speculate about it. But considering my inheritance, SFA and maybe dairy in general might be really shitty for me after all 🤷♀️ but for other reasons than vA.
"My own stand has changed some. I used to believe all vA was poison in any form. I now believe that carotenoids probably doesn't have to be an issue, if taken in its natural, unadulterated form, like fresh fruits and veggies, chewed, where the pigment is capsuled in with fiber (soluble and insoluble) and important co-factors, probably beneficial for our gut microbiota and therefore beneficial for us. I am still unsure about cooked purées, and cooked with fats, and I am still very sceptical towards powders, blended forms and juices." - @liz
Dietary Fat and Bioavailability of Plant
Carotenes in Malnourished Children
(not sure why cut and paste replaced the f's with boxes?)
Roels et al.3 demonstrated the importance of dietary fat
in the utilization of vegetable carotenoids in 9- to 16-
year-old Rwandan boys (n = 22), 77% of whom had
clinical signs of vitamin A de ciency (i.e., Bitot spots).
They were assigned to ve groups of four or ve subjects
per group, and housed in a hospital ward for the duration
of the study during which controlled diets were fed. The
basic meal consisted of boiled low-carotene vegetables
and cereal, and boiled lean beef was provided once a
week. Group 1 was fed 100 g of raw grated carrots (with
9.4 mg carotene) per meal during midday and evening
meals. Group 2 was fed the same amount of carrots plus
9 g of olive oil per meal; the total intake of carotene was
approximately 18.8 mg/day in both groups, and the total
fat intake in Group 2 was 18 g/day. Boys in Group 3
received 28 mg of carotene supplement plus 18 g of olive
oil daily, whereas others received oil only (Group 4), or
placebo only (Group 5). After 31 days of daily feeding,
mean serum total carotenes increased twofold in the
group fed carrots without oil, sevenfold in the group fed
carrots plus oil, and eightfold in the group fed carotene
supplements plus oil; the corresponding increases in
mean serum retinol in these three groups were 43%,
62%, and 60%, respectively. No rise in serum carotenes
was observed in the groups fed oil only or placebo only,
although small increases in mean serum retinol were found.
Based on the daily amounts of carotene ingested
and the average daily amounts of carotene excreted in
stool, the authors calculated that subjects who ate carrots
without oil absorbed less than 5% of the carotenes they
ingested; those who ate carrots with oil absorbed 25%;
and those who ingested carotene supplements plus oil
absorbed 45% of the carotene administered. This study
among vitamin A– de cient subjects therefore showed
that although the addition of olive oil (9 g) to meals
greatly enhanced the bioavailability of carotenes in carrots,
the provision of carrots alone (even without added
oil) resulted in some improvement in serum carotenes
and retinol. It is possible that the boiled lean beef
provided once weekly contributed a small but suf cient
amount of fat to facilitate some carotene utilization.
However, other plausible explanations(discussed below)
cannot be ruled out.
https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002680/
Quote from Liz on April 27, 2023, 3:53 amYeah trauma is horrible for sure, damaging for the body and brain and some believe it is permanent (especially hippocampus shrinking, but the brain is plastic so I refuse to accept amything as "permanent") I can relate to your struggles @inger, I have a trauma and PTSD baggage as well. It sucks. I never abused anything "worse" than chocolate, but coped with control and further abusing myself in other ways. I am thankful you no longer need the stimulants. That is fantastic
My family is from Kuhmo, close to the russian border. My grandfather fought in the war. But the finish Sisu is pretty amazing
little Finland against mighty Russia in dead cold winter and they kicked some serious butt! The scarring runds deep though, which is understandable.
Karen Hurd (who has a degree in biochemistry after all) belive SFA damages the DNA and does not recommend any form for SFA at any time, especially not during healing. Could also be that Fins genetically are worse off with a diet high in SFA. I Don't know, can only speculate about it. But considering my inheritance, SFA and maybe dairy in general might be really shitty for me after all
but for other reasons than vA.
I posted this the other day as part of another conversation...
Click to access Chapter-6-Power-of-the-Parents.pdf
Interesting about SFA damaging DNA. Peskin addresses their role in CVD or CHD stating, "There is no saturated fat in an arterial occlusion/thrombosis (clog). There are over ten different compounds in arterial plaque, but NO saturated fat."
"Saturated fats are nonessential—the body makes them easily
from carbohydrate consumption, if they are not directly consumed.
Significant amounts of saturated fat—palmitic acid in
particular—are required by the body. Without saturated fats,
nerve impulses would be much slower. Saturated fats won’t
turn rancid. Saturated fats allow varying degrees of rigidity in
cells and tissues. These fats can withstand extreme heat; much
of the ingested saturated fat gets burned for energy. We also
know from chemistry that saturated fats can’t form harmful byproducts."
-PEO Solutions p. 177