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The false carotenoid conversion factors for vitamin A

#21 · April 27, 2023, 9:32 pm

Quote from Liz on April 27, 2023, 9:32 pm
Interesting find @pattycake. Carrots being the "worst of the worst", only 5% of BC was absorbed without fat, and they suspected the little fat in the weekly beef added to the absorption. I think malnourishment makes one a sponge, the body hyper absorbs everything. But that is just pure speculation from my end

I did see the pdf (and I love the antidote thead, it sure made me question a lot) but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. The take on fats depends a lot of whom one talks to, SFA is the holy graal and one should eat plenty, or SFA can be problematic and should not be eaten in excess (and a few who claims it is pure death but apparently those doesn't know jack shit about much) it is a very confusing area. Studies about the subject as well equally confusing. Karen's stand is that SFA ingested, since they are stable, are hard to make into anything else by the mitochondria and creates free radicals in the cleaving process which might damage the DNA (or something like that), MUFA and PUFA are more reactive due to their double bonds and easier to rebuild to something else. I did spend some time on pubmed digging but it just gave me a headache so I dropped it again. Will ask her about it next time I reach out. SFA can be found in plant fats too although in smaller amounts, and are also created by the body but she means PUFA and MUFA should be focused on (nuts, seeds, plant oils), and sources with higher amount of SFA should be avoided (cacao, coconut, palm, dairy, beef). And again, considering her success with peoples diseases, but also the antidote thread, at least shoots a huge hole into Ray Peats PUFA is poison theory 🤷‍♀️

My personal stand on SFA is that ingesting too much of them may be problematic for some individuals. Focusing on coconut oil as a primary fat source, which has been a craze for some years now might be a bad idea and might lead to EFA deficiency. Could an EFA deficiency contribute to vA poisoning?

Edit: to extend my thought, the body creates a lot of things it needs when it needs it. Like proteins, fatty acids, carbs and whatnot. As long as the building material has been provided and is provided every day. If one lacks nails or screws, building a stable house will be difficult. What if too much dietary SFA, like coconut, and not enough of EFA, creates a problem because the body is missing building blocks? The actual SFA is not necessarily an issue since they are needed too (whether from gut bacteria or foods), but the deficiency of MUFA and PUFA makes dietary SFA an issue, because it cannot be converted to unsaturated fats? Just a theory. We don't know how much the body need of each and when. We also have a lot stored, and the body probably reuses building materials from old cells etc, so it might take many years before biting one in the butt. But that is usually what disease is, it can take many years for autoimmune or cancer to appear, who knows how long the body has been fighting for survival until one finally ends up sick?

Interesting find @pattycake. Carrots being the "worst of the worst", only 5% of BC was absorbed without fat, and they suspected the little fat in the weekly beef added to the absorption. I think malnourishment makes one a sponge, the body hyper absorbs everything. But that is just pure speculation from my end

I did see the pdf (and I love the antidote thead, it sure made me question a lot) but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. The take on fats depends a lot of whom one talks to, SFA is the holy graal and one should eat plenty, or SFA can be problematic and should not be eaten in excess (and a few who claims it is pure death but apparently those doesn't know jack shit about much) it is a very confusing area. Studies about the subject as well equally confusing. Karen's stand is that SFA ingested, since they are stable, are hard to make into anything else by the mitochondria and creates free radicals in the cleaving process which might damage the DNA (or something like that), MUFA and PUFA are more reactive due to their double bonds and easier to rebuild to something else. I did spend some time on pubmed digging but it just gave me a headache so I dropped it again. Will ask her about it next time I reach out. SFA can be found in plant fats too although in smaller amounts, and are also created by the body but she means PUFA and MUFA should be focused on (nuts, seeds, plant oils), and sources with higher amount of SFA should be avoided (cacao, coconut, palm, dairy, beef). And again, considering her success with peoples diseases, but also the antidote thread, at least shoots a huge hole into Ray Peats PUFA is poison theory 🤷‍♀️

My personal stand on SFA is that ingesting too much of them may be problematic for some individuals. Focusing on coconut oil as a primary fat source, which has been a craze for some years now might be a bad idea and might lead to EFA deficiency. Could an EFA deficiency contribute to vA poisoning?

Edit: to extend my thought, the body creates a lot of things it needs when it needs it. Like proteins, fatty acids, carbs and whatnot. As long as the building material has been provided and is provided every day. If one lacks nails or screws, building a stable house will be difficult. What if too much dietary SFA, like coconut, and not enough of EFA, creates a problem because the body is missing building blocks? The actual SFA is not necessarily an issue since they are needed too (whether from gut bacteria or foods), but the deficiency of MUFA and PUFA makes dietary SFA an issue, because it cannot be converted to unsaturated fats? Just a theory. We don't know how much the body need of each and when. We also have a lot stored, and the body probably reuses building materials from old cells etc, so it might take many years before biting one in the butt. But that is usually what disease is, it can take many years for autoimmune or cancer to appear, who knows how long the body has been fighting for survival until one finally ends up sick?

Jenny, puddleduck and 5 other users have reacted to this post.

#22 · April 27, 2023, 10:33 pm

@liz

How do we know that Karen has been successful?

#23 · April 27, 2023, 10:50 pm

The best testimonal is always to try it out for yourself. Listen to her podcasts to learn more about her ideas, read her "green dragon" story to see where she cones from, if unsure reach out to her and ask her. Ask her how you can be sure about her success. If you want to try it out, by one plan and get life long access to her help. She has 17 different plans based on which disease one has because each plan is different, and she is working on more.

I have come to the conclusion based on the information I have gatheted and tried that she is legit. Best of all, she uses only food and rest, NO supplements of any kind. Just because she says eat vegetables with each meal doesn't mean one has to pick high A og high Ox ones...

puddleduck, Tommy and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#24 · April 28, 2023, 1:29 pm

Quote from PJ on April 28, 2023, 1:29 pm

Quote from Liz on April 27, 2023, 9:32 pm

Interesting find @pattycake. Carrots being the "worst of the worst", only 5% of BC was absorbed without fat, and they suspected the little fat in the weekly beef added to the absorption. I think malnourishment makes one a sponge, the body hyper absorbs everything. But that is just pure speculation from my end

I did see the pdf (and I love the antidote thead, it sure made me question a lot) but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. The take on fats depends a lot of whom one talks to, SFA is the holy graal and one should eat plenty, or SFA can be problematic and should not be eaten in excess (and a few who claims it is pure death but apparently those doesn't know jack shit about much) it is a very confusing area. Studies about the subject as well equally confusing. Karen's stand is that SFA ingested, since they are stable, are hard to make into anything else by the mitochondria and creates free radicals in the cleaving process which might damage the DNA (or something like that), MUFA and PUFA are more reactive due to their double bonds and easier to rebuild to something else. I did spend some time on pubmed digging but it just gave me a headache so I dropped it again. Will ask her about it next time I reach out. SFA can be found in plant fats too although in smaller amounts, and are also created by the body but she means PUFA and MUFA should be focused on (nuts, seeds, plant oils), and sources with higher amount of SFA should be avoided (cacao, coconut, palm, dairy, beef). And again, considering her success with peoples diseases, but also the antidote thread, at least shoots a huge hole into Ray Peats PUFA is poison theory

My personal stand on SFA is that ingesting too much of them may be problematic for some individuals. Focusing on coconut oil as a primary fat source, which has been a craze for some years now might be a bad idea and might lead to EFA deficiency. Could an EFA deficiency contribute to vA poisoning?

Edit: to extend my thought, the body creates a lot of things it needs when it needs it. Like proteins, fatty acids, carbs and whatnot. As long as the building material has been provided and is provided every day. If one lacks nails or screws, building a stable house will be difficult. What if too much dietary SFA, like coconut, and not enough of EFA, creates a problem because the body is missing building blocks? The actual SFA is not necessarily an issue since they are needed too (whether from gut bacteria or foods), but the deficiency of MUFA and PUFA makes dietary SFA an issue, because it cannot be converted to unsaturated fats? Just a theory. We don't know how much the body need of each and when. We also have a lot stored, and the body probably reuses building materials from old cells etc, so it might take many years before biting one in the butt. But that is usually what disease is, it can take many years for autoimmune or cancer to appear, who knows how long the body has been fighting for survival until one finally ends up sick?

"Could an EFA deficiency contribute to VA toxicity?" I think so! and yeah, I think the fact that you find a combo of the different fats in each food indicates each is necessary. The question is how much of each. Udo Erasmus (Fats the Heal, Fat's that Kill) makes this observation about EFA's (taken from a video interview), "In the tropics and the Arctic the ratios are very different. In the Arctic's, you have Arctic and Antarctic, you have high omega 3's, You go further south, let's go from the north further south, you get more Omega 6's. You go further south again you get more omega 9's and you go to the tropics and you end up with more saturated fats like coconut and palm so the ratio changes around the world depending on the latitude. And why is that? Because the saturated fats in coconuts are cooling oils, they actually cool you a little, that's a good thing in the tropics. The Omega 3's in the North are warming oils, that's a good thing in the North when you're freezing your buns off. And the fish that swim in cold water, they have omega-3s in them because if you didn't have omega-3s, if you only had like beef tallow in the fish up there, they would actually freeze in the water. So they have to have enough energy, enough fluidity, enough liquidity to be able to float around and go fast and get away from enemies, something that makes them go." -Udo

Udo even addresses the omega content in flax seeds grown at different lattitudes containing differing amounts of omega 3. So that brings up the idea of eating seasonal & local.

I also like this illustration by Dr. Thomas Wnorowski, the head of R&D for BodyBio. He uses a circus tent to demonstrate functions. "The fabric of the circus tent is phosphatidylcholine. The two masts in the middle of the tent that hold up the ceiling, that's cholesterol. Take that away the cell collapses. The poles around the periphery of the circus tent that hold up the sides, that's saturated fat. You need some saturated fat for structure, too much will interfere with the flexibility of the flapping when the wind blows. And then you're going to wind up with something that's too stiff to hold up to the wind. And then the flaps that allow people and the entertainers in and out of the circus, that represents essential fatty acids. So you take any of those things away from that representation of the cell and you have a collapse." 🎪

Quote from Liz on April 27, 2023, 9:32 pm

Interesting find @pattycake. Carrots being the "worst of the worst", only 5% of BC was absorbed without fat, and they suspected the little fat in the weekly beef added to the absorption. I think malnourishment makes one a sponge, the body hyper absorbs everything. But that is just pure speculation from my end

I did see the pdf (and I love the antidote thead, it sure made me question a lot) but haven't gotten around to reading it yet. The take on fats depends a lot of whom one talks to, SFA is the holy graal and one should eat plenty, or SFA can be problematic and should not be eaten in excess (and a few who claims it is pure death but apparently those doesn't know jack shit about much) it is a very confusing area. Studies about the subject as well equally confusing. Karen's stand is that SFA ingested, since they are stable, are hard to make into anything else by the mitochondria and creates free radicals in the cleaving process which might damage the DNA (or something like that), MUFA and PUFA are more reactive due to their double bonds and easier to rebuild to something else. I did spend some time on pubmed digging but it just gave me a headache so I dropped it again. Will ask her about it next time I reach out. SFA can be found in plant fats too although in smaller amounts, and are also created by the body but she means PUFA and MUFA should be focused on (nuts, seeds, plant oils), and sources with higher amount of SFA should be avoided (cacao, coconut, palm, dairy, beef). And again, considering her success with peoples diseases, but also the antidote thread, at least shoots a huge hole into Ray Peats PUFA is poison theory

My personal stand on SFA is that ingesting too much of them may be problematic for some individuals. Focusing on coconut oil as a primary fat source, which has been a craze for some years now might be a bad idea and might lead to EFA deficiency. Could an EFA deficiency contribute to vA poisoning?

Edit: to extend my thought, the body creates a lot of things it needs when it needs it. Like proteins, fatty acids, carbs and whatnot. As long as the building material has been provided and is provided every day. If one lacks nails or screws, building a stable house will be difficult. What if too much dietary SFA, like coconut, and not enough of EFA, creates a problem because the body is missing building blocks? The actual SFA is not necessarily an issue since they are needed too (whether from gut bacteria or foods), but the deficiency of MUFA and PUFA makes dietary SFA an issue, because it cannot be converted to unsaturated fats? Just a theory. We don't know how much the body need of each and when. We also have a lot stored, and the body probably reuses building materials from old cells etc, so it might take many years before biting one in the butt. But that is usually what disease is, it can take many years for autoimmune or cancer to appear, who knows how long the body has been fighting for survival until one finally ends up sick?

"Could an EFA deficiency contribute to VA toxicity?" I think so! and yeah, I think the fact that you find a combo of the different fats in each food indicates each is necessary. The question is how much of each. Udo Erasmus (Fats the Heal, Fat's that Kill) makes this observation about EFA's (taken from a video interview), "In the tropics and the Arctic the ratios are very different. In the Arctic's, you have Arctic and Antarctic, you have high omega 3's, You go further south, let's go from the north further south, you get more Omega 6's. You go further south again you get more omega 9's and you go to the tropics and you end up with more saturated fats like coconut and palm so the ratio changes around the world depending on the latitude. And why is that? Because the saturated fats in coconuts are cooling oils, they actually cool you a little, that's a good thing in the tropics. The Omega 3's in the North are warming oils, that's a good thing in the North when you're freezing your buns off. And the fish that swim in cold water, they have omega-3s in them because if you didn't have omega-3s, if you only had like beef tallow in the fish up there, they would actually freeze in the water. So they have to have enough energy, enough fluidity, enough liquidity to be able to float around and go fast and get away from enemies, something that makes them go." -Udo

Udo even addresses the omega content in flax seeds grown at different lattitudes containing differing amounts of omega 3. So that brings up the idea of eating seasonal & local.

I also like this illustration by Dr. Thomas Wnorowski, the head of R&D for BodyBio. He uses a circus tent to demonstrate functions. "The fabric of the circus tent is phosphatidylcholine. The two masts in the middle of the tent that hold up the ceiling, that's cholesterol. Take that away the cell collapses. The poles around the periphery of the circus tent that hold up the sides, that's saturated fat. You need some saturated fat for structure, too much will interfere with the flexibility of the flapping when the wind blows. And then you're going to wind up with something that's too stiff to hold up to the wind. And then the flaps that allow people and the entertainers in and out of the circus, that represents essential fatty acids. So you take any of those things away from that representation of the cell and you have a collapse." 🎪

Jenny, Liz and 5 other users have reacted to this post.

#25 · April 28, 2023, 7:06 pm

Quote from PJ on April 28, 2023, 7:06 pm

Quote from PJ on April 27, 2023, 3:12 pm

"My own stand has changed some. I used to believe all vA was poison in any form. I now believe that carotenoids probably doesn't have to be an issue, if taken in its natural, unadulterated form, like fresh fruits and veggies, chewed, where the pigment is capsuled in with fiber (soluble and insoluble) and important co-factors, probably beneficial for our gut microbiota and therefore beneficial for us. I am still unsure about cooked purées, and cooked with fats, and I am still very sceptical towards powders, blended forms and juices." - @liz

Dietary Fat and Bioavailability of Plant
Carotenes in Malnourished Children

(not sure why cut and paste replaced the f's with boxes?)

Roels et al.3 demonstrated the importance of dietary fat
in the utilization of vegetable carotenoids in 9- to 16-
year-old Rwandan boys (n = 22), 77% of whom had
clinical signs of vitamin A de ciency (i.e., Bitot spots).
They were assigned to ve groups of four or ve subjects
per group, and housed in a hospital ward for the duration
of the study during which controlled diets were fed. The
basic meal consisted of boiled low-carotene vegetables
and cereal, and boiled lean beef was provided once a
week. Group 1 was fed 100 g of raw grated carrots (with
9.4 mg carotene) per meal during midday and evening
meals. Group 2 was fed the same amount of carrots plus
9 g of olive oil per meal; the total intake of carotene was
approximately 18.8 mg/day in both groups, and the total
fat intake in Group 2 was 18 g/day. Boys in Group 3
received 28 mg of carotene supplement plus 18 g of olive
oil daily, whereas others received oil only (Group 4), or
placebo only (Group 5). After 31 days of daily feeding,
mean serum total carotenes increased twofold in the
group fed carrots without oil, sevenfold in the group fed
carrots plus oil, and eightfold in the group fed carotene
supplements plus oil; the corresponding increases in
mean serum retinol in these three groups were 43%,
62%, and 60%, respectively. No rise in serum carotenes
was observed in the groups fed oil only or placebo only,
although small increases in mean serum retinol were found.

Based on the daily amounts of carotene ingested
and the average daily amounts of carotene excreted in
stool, the authors calculated that subjects who ate carrots
without oil absorbed less than 5% of the carotenes they
ingested; those who ate carrots with oil absorbed 25%;
and those who ingested carotene supplements plus oil
absorbed 45% of the carotene administered. This study
among vitamin A– de cient subjects therefore showed
that although the addition of olive oil (9 g) to meals
greatly enhanced the bioavailability of carotenes in carrots,

the provision of carrots alone (even without added
oil) resulted in some improvement in serum carotenes
and retinol. It is possible that the boiled lean beef
provided once weekly contributed a small but suf cient
amount of fat to facilitate some carotene utilization.
However, other plausible explanations(discussed below)
cannot be ruled out.

https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002680/

@liz

FYI, there are a number of other studies summarized in the review that may be insightful.

https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002680/

Quote from PJ on April 27, 2023, 3:12 pm

"My own stand has changed some. I used to believe all vA was poison in any form. I now believe that carotenoids probably doesn't have to be an issue, if taken in its natural, unadulterated form, like fresh fruits and veggies, chewed, where the pigment is capsuled in with fiber (soluble and insoluble) and important co-factors, probably beneficial for our gut microbiota and therefore beneficial for us. I am still unsure about cooked purées, and cooked with fats, and I am still very sceptical towards powders, blended forms and juices." - @liz

Dietary Fat and Bioavailability of Plant
Carotenes in Malnourished Children

(not sure why cut and paste replaced the f's with boxes?)

Roels et al.3 demonstrated the importance of dietary fat
in the utilization of vegetable carotenoids in 9- to 16-
year-old Rwandan boys (n = 22), 77% of whom had
clinical signs of vitamin A de ciency (i.e., Bitot spots).
They were assigned to ve groups of four or ve subjects
per group, and housed in a hospital ward for the duration
of the study during which controlled diets were fed. The
basic meal consisted of boiled low-carotene vegetables
and cereal, and boiled lean beef was provided once a
week. Group 1 was fed 100 g of raw grated carrots (with
9.4 mg carotene) per meal during midday and evening
meals. Group 2 was fed the same amount of carrots plus
9 g of olive oil per meal; the total intake of carotene was
approximately 18.8 mg/day in both groups, and the total
fat intake in Group 2 was 18 g/day. Boys in Group 3
received 28 mg of carotene supplement plus 18 g of olive
oil daily, whereas others received oil only (Group 4), or
placebo only (Group 5). After 31 days of daily feeding,
mean serum total carotenes increased twofold in the
group fed carrots without oil, sevenfold in the group fed
carrots plus oil, and eightfold in the group fed carotene
supplements plus oil; the corresponding increases in
mean serum retinol in these three groups were 43%,
62%, and 60%, respectively. No rise in serum carotenes
was observed in the groups fed oil only or placebo only,
although small increases in mean serum retinol were found.

Based on the daily amounts of carotene ingested
and the average daily amounts of carotene excreted in
stool, the authors calculated that subjects who ate carrots
without oil absorbed less than 5% of the carotenes they
ingested; those who ate carrots with oil absorbed 25%;
and those who ingested carotene supplements plus oil
absorbed 45% of the carotene administered. This study
among vitamin A– de cient subjects therefore showed
that although the addition of olive oil (9 g) to meals
greatly enhanced the bioavailability of carotenes in carrots,

the provision of carrots alone (even without added
oil) resulted in some improvement in serum carotenes
and retinol. It is possible that the boiled lean beef
provided once weekly contributed a small but suf cient
amount of fat to facilitate some carotene utilization.
However, other plausible explanations(discussed below)
cannot be ruled out.

https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002680/

@liz

FYI, there are a number of other studies summarized in the review that may be insightful.

https://sci-hub.st/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12002680/

Liz and puddleduck have reacted to this post.

#26 · April 28, 2023, 11:54 pm

Thanks @pattycake will check it out 🙂

Loved the circus tent analogy 👍

puddleduck and PJ have reacted to this post.

#27 · May 4, 2023, 10:40 pm

hmm, how to delete a post?🦧

puddleduck has reacted to this post.

#28 · May 5, 2023, 8:39 am

That is indeed SUCH a good analogy @pattycake! 😎

The hostile environment showing its ugly face in here from time to time really suck! Science is not about narrowmindedness. It is about finding the truth. No matter how far away it might be from ones personal belief.

Totally agree! Thank you for posting so many challenging questions and thoughts, @liz. 🙂 I appreciate hearing your perspective.

I've been pondering some similar stuff...

Especially over the past few months I have been on the eggsperiment, since reading your posts here, and more recently due to a conversation with another vitamin A detox-er who brought up some concerns regarding how many people are suffering due to the "detox setback," which I feel does exacerbate orthorexia in some with that tendency, leading to worse undernutrition. It is a vicious cycle...

At some point, I will try to add a few more anecdotes to this thread. I think we can absolutely learn from people who are doing things wildly differently than we have done.

Jenny, Liz and 4 other users have reacted to this post.

#29 · May 19, 2023, 8:36 am

Quote from puddleduck on May 19, 2023, 8:36 am
Although I know of one woman getting rid of her endometriosis and living free of it for years now and other ailments while eating WAPF - with liver, meats, veggies, full fat milk and what not. Another anecdote I cannot wrap my head around. - Liz

That is pretty amazing, and puzzling from Grant's Chronic Hypervitaminosis A Hypothesis perspective, at least. Maybe she intuitively lowered her oxalate intake? And all the biotin (see my log for my experience with that and a video from Chris Masterjohn on his biotin-oxalate-dumping hypothesis) in liver and eggs combined with the calcium from dairy helped her detox it?

Anecdotally, @michele got rid of her accutane poisoning on a fruit diet, whereas she failed on Grants diet. - Liz

Here's a quote from Michele's log:

I have always been thin, but when I was on the low VA diet, I lost a significant amount of weight (for my body) very quickly. I began the diet around 115/120 lbs (I am 5'7") and within a month or so, I was down to 105.

And I was eating SO MUCH. Bowls and bowls of rice, plus beef, plus beans. Upwards of 3,000-4,000 calories a day. In my opinion, something was seriously off here. Not to mention the fact that I was ravenously hungry ALL THE TIME.

(Sounds a bit like hyperthyroidism? At least the weight loss bit. Or maybe an EFA deficiency? Something "off" was happening, no doubt...)

Now I eat about 1,500 calories a day, which comes mostly from fruit, and I'm never hungry and I am somewhere between 110-115. I am toned and fit, no cellulite, etc. and was able to rebuild quite nicely after my fast (though it did take a bit longer than I had hoped, about 5 months).

I am obviously a female so I'm not sure if it is more difficult for males to gain muscle on this diet.

I would love to hear an update, too! It is tremendously great she found something that worked for her. Dry eye must be like torture!

You got me on a bit of a vegan kick, @liz... So I have a few veganism anecdotes from YouTubers (some of whom I used to follow in my WAPF days). I will share some less extreme anecdotes in a future post.

A Case Study: Matt Monarch Develops Crohn's Disease on a 100% Raw Diet High in Superfoods

Okay, so firstly I want to say I feel terrible for Matt (and his wife Angela). He had the best of intentions taking the approach he did, but instead of backing off and switching things up when his digestive health started to fail, he doubled down and "detoxed harder."

He tried fasting. He tried high-caloric raw juice intake (goji juice, carrot juice, green juice; all of them high in oxalate). Neither helped, and he ended up getting so sick he consented to having his colon removed.

With a history of high intake of raw chocolate (there are even videos on his channel about chocolate enemas 🤨) and high intake of raw almonds, he likely poisoned himself with oxalate, more than anything else.

Plugging his typical 100% raw vegan day of meals into Chronometer, gets him to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 1729
- OXALATE INTAKE: 1030 mg (INSANE AMOUNT)
- FIBER INTAKE: 42 g
- FAT INTAKE: 86 g (close to the RDA for omega 6 and 3)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 40 g (low)
- B VITAMINS: greatly exceeds the RDA (with the exception of B12, B3 and B5)
- K2: greatly exceeds the RDA
- CHOLINE: 152 mg (deficient intake)
- vitamin E: 127% of the RDA
- vitamin A: 809% of the RDA of RAE (over fifty-seven thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

He did seem to suffer from orthorexia, especially as he kept going on these "cleansing fasts" to the point of emaciation throughout his years as a raw vegan.

It's a really sad story.

My own related experience: when I first got sick, I was afraid of "toxic junk foods" (oils, flour, sugar, white rice, etc) so I would under eat calories and then get so hungry I would sometimes binge on "safe superfoods" (dried goji berries, bitter dark chocolate, trail mix, sweet potato fries...all of which are high in oxalate.) I wonder if the combination of caloric restriction and high oxalate intake is especially damaging?

A Case Study: Freelee the Banana Girl Maintains a High-Calorie Frugivore Diet for 10+ Years

Like Matt, Freelee is evidently not storing carotenes from sweet potatoes, mangos, and carrots as adipose tissue. Perhaps because she avoids fats pretty severely (rightly or wrongly, I judge her avoidance of fats as somewhat disordered/orthorexic) and she consumes a high-fiber diet her absorption of carotenes is limited?

Unlike most vegans, she is somewhat suspicious of over-consuming legumes ("too much protein"). So for starch she relies on bananas (she estimates she has eaten an average of 10 bananas daily for the past ten+ years) and white rice heavily, which are, of course, low in carotenoids.

Plugging one of her average daily mealplans into Chronometer, gets her to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 3,586
- OXALATE INTAKE: 228 mg (Sally Norton suggests healthy individuals should stay under 150 mg daily)
- FIBER INTAKE: 66 g
- FAT INTAKE: 11 g (well below the RDA for omega 6 and 3, but to be fair she sometimes does eat nuts and seeds and olives and such, just not this day...she may be getting enough with sporadic consumption?)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 57 g (low)
- B VITMAINS: Well above the RDA on every single B vitamin (aside from B12, which she does supplement), especially B6 (like over 600% of the RDA! This is interesting to me because of Jenny's posts on the importance of B6 and the other Bs for mitochondrial energy.)
- K2: well over the RDA
- CHOLINE: 367 mg (86% of the RDA for women)
- vitamin E: deficient (again, on the days she eats nuts and seeds it will be fine...she may be getting enough)
- vitamin A: 142% of the RDA of RAE (over ten thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

As far as minerals go, her diet is low in calcium (44% RDA) and iron (77%) but adequate in practically everything else, with copper, manganese, and potassium being super duper high. I'm pretty sure she supplements iodine, which would be severely deficient otherwise.

Overall, she has fared better than Matt Monarch on the vegan lifestyle, perhaps due to:

1. Her emphasis on whole foods rather than juicing
2. Her avoidance of excessive intake of high-fat sources of oxalate ("chocolate is a drug")
3. Her abundant intake of B vitamins and vitamin K
4. Her high caloric intake. (She is outspoken against caloric restriction, often citing Ancel Keys Minnesotan Starvation Experiment.)

My own related experience: Caloric restriction was the single most harmful thing I ever did to my body. The Minnesotan Starvation Experiment helped me recover from anorexia.

A Case Study: Ellen Fisher Births 5 Healthy Children on a Vegan Diet

Ellen tends to consume more legumes and more whole fats (nut and seed butters like thahini, coconut milk, hemp hearts, etc) than Freelee. She initially started her vegan diet in order to recover from a restrictive eating disorder. Here is one of those "What I Eat in a Day" videos from her:

https://youtu.be/h6cPX4rAgTA

Plugging those foods into Chronometer, gets her to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 3299
- OXALATE INTAKE: 237 mg
- FIBER INTAKE: 89 mg
- FAT INTAKE: 123 g (exceeds the RDA for omega 6 and 3 by a little)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 97 g (adequate)
- B VITAMINS: greatly exceeds the RDA (same deal as Freelee above, lots of B6)
- K2: greatly exceeds the RDA
- CHOLINE: 360 mg (84% of the RDA for women)
- vitamin E: 122% of the RDA
- vitamin A: 251% of the RDA of RAE (over twenty thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

Ellen and her husband and children appear to be quite healthy, and she has birthed at home without any complications.

When I have more time, I would like to post some thoughts insofar as why veganism might apparently heal people of arthritis and asthma other such diseases you also hear of people healing on carnivore. I find it fascinating that two polar opposite extremes can yield similar healing stories...

Although I know of one woman getting rid of her endometriosis and living free of it for years now and other ailments while eating WAPF - with liver, meats, veggies, full fat milk and what not. Another anecdote I cannot wrap my head around. - Liz

That is pretty amazing, and puzzling from Grant's Chronic Hypervitaminosis A Hypothesis perspective, at least. Maybe she intuitively lowered her oxalate intake? And all the biotin (see my log for my experience with that and a video from Chris Masterjohn on his biotin-oxalate-dumping hypothesis) in liver and eggs combined with the calcium from dairy helped her detox it?

Anecdotally, @michele got rid of her accutane poisoning on a fruit diet, whereas she failed on Grants diet. - Liz

Here's a quote from Michele's log:

I have always been thin, but when I was on the low VA diet, I lost a significant amount of weight (for my body) very quickly. I began the diet around 115/120 lbs (I am 5'7") and within a month or so, I was down to 105.

And I was eating SO MUCH. Bowls and bowls of rice, plus beef, plus beans. Upwards of 3,000-4,000 calories a day. In my opinion, something was seriously off here. Not to mention the fact that I was ravenously hungry ALL THE TIME.

(Sounds a bit like hyperthyroidism? At least the weight loss bit. Or maybe an EFA deficiency? Something "off" was happening, no doubt...)

Now I eat about 1,500 calories a day, which comes mostly from fruit, and I'm never hungry and I am somewhere between 110-115. I am toned and fit, no cellulite, etc. and was able to rebuild quite nicely after my fast (though it did take a bit longer than I had hoped, about 5 months).

I am obviously a female so I'm not sure if it is more difficult for males to gain muscle on this diet.

I would love to hear an update, too! It is tremendously great she found something that worked for her. Dry eye must be like torture!

You got me on a bit of a vegan kick, @liz... So I have a few veganism anecdotes from YouTubers (some of whom I used to follow in my WAPF days). I will share some less extreme anecdotes in a future post.

A Case Study: Matt Monarch Develops Crohn's Disease on a 100% Raw Diet High in Superfoods

Okay, so firstly I want to say I feel terrible for Matt (and his wife Angela). He had the best of intentions taking the approach he did, but instead of backing off and switching things up when his digestive health started to fail, he doubled down and "detoxed harder."

He tried fasting. He tried high-caloric raw juice intake (goji juice, carrot juice, green juice; all of them high in oxalate). Neither helped, and he ended up getting so sick he consented to having his colon removed.

With a history of high intake of raw chocolate (there are even videos on his channel about chocolate enemas 🤨) and high intake of raw almonds, he likely poisoned himself with oxalate, more than anything else.

Plugging his typical 100% raw vegan day of meals into Chronometer, gets him to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 1729
- OXALATE INTAKE: 1030 mg (INSANE AMOUNT)
- FIBER INTAKE: 42 g
- FAT INTAKE: 86 g (close to the RDA for omega 6 and 3)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 40 g (low)
- B VITAMINS: greatly exceeds the RDA (with the exception of B12, B3 and B5)
- K2: greatly exceeds the RDA
- CHOLINE: 152 mg (deficient intake)
- vitamin E: 127% of the RDA
- vitamin A: 809% of the RDA of RAE (over fifty-seven thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

He did seem to suffer from orthorexia, especially as he kept going on these "cleansing fasts" to the point of emaciation throughout his years as a raw vegan.

It's a really sad story.

My own related experience: when I first got sick, I was afraid of "toxic junk foods" (oils, flour, sugar, white rice, etc) so I would under eat calories and then get so hungry I would sometimes binge on "safe superfoods" (dried goji berries, bitter dark chocolate, trail mix, sweet potato fries...all of which are high in oxalate.) I wonder if the combination of caloric restriction and high oxalate intake is especially damaging?

A Case Study: Freelee the Banana Girl Maintains a High-Calorie Frugivore Diet for 10+ Years

Like Matt, Freelee is evidently not storing carotenes from sweet potatoes, mangos, and carrots as adipose tissue. Perhaps because she avoids fats pretty severely (rightly or wrongly, I judge her avoidance of fats as somewhat disordered/orthorexic) and she consumes a high-fiber diet her absorption of carotenes is limited?

Unlike most vegans, she is somewhat suspicious of over-consuming legumes ("too much protein"). So for starch she relies on bananas (she estimates she has eaten an average of 10 bananas daily for the past ten+ years) and white rice heavily, which are, of course, low in carotenoids.

Plugging one of her average daily mealplans into Chronometer, gets her to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 3,586
- OXALATE INTAKE: 228 mg (Sally Norton suggests healthy individuals should stay under 150 mg daily)
- FIBER INTAKE: 66 g
- FAT INTAKE: 11 g (well below the RDA for omega 6 and 3, but to be fair she sometimes does eat nuts and seeds and olives and such, just not this day...she may be getting enough with sporadic consumption?)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 57 g (low)
- B VITMAINS: Well above the RDA on every single B vitamin (aside from B12, which she does supplement), especially B6 (like over 600% of the RDA! This is interesting to me because of Jenny's posts on the importance of B6 and the other Bs for mitochondrial energy.)
- K2: well over the RDA
- CHOLINE: 367 mg (86% of the RDA for women)
- vitamin E: deficient (again, on the days she eats nuts and seeds it will be fine...she may be getting enough)
- vitamin A: 142% of the RDA of RAE (over ten thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

As far as minerals go, her diet is low in calcium (44% RDA) and iron (77%) but adequate in practically everything else, with copper, manganese, and potassium being super duper high. I'm pretty sure she supplements iodine, which would be severely deficient otherwise.

Overall, she has fared better than Matt Monarch on the vegan lifestyle, perhaps due to:

1. Her emphasis on whole foods rather than juicing
2. Her avoidance of excessive intake of high-fat sources of oxalate ("chocolate is a drug")
3. Her abundant intake of B vitamins and vitamin K
4. Her high caloric intake. (She is outspoken against caloric restriction, often citing Ancel Keys Minnesotan Starvation Experiment.)

My own related experience: Caloric restriction was the single most harmful thing I ever did to my body. The Minnesotan Starvation Experiment helped me recover from anorexia.

A Case Study: Ellen Fisher Births 5 Healthy Children on a Vegan Diet

Ellen tends to consume more legumes and more whole fats (nut and seed butters like thahini, coconut milk, hemp hearts, etc) than Freelee. She initially started her vegan diet in order to recover from a restrictive eating disorder. Here is one of those "What I Eat in a Day" videos from her:

Plugging those foods into Chronometer, gets her to:

- CALORIC INTAKE: 3299
- OXALATE INTAKE: 237 mg
- FIBER INTAKE: 89 mg
- FAT INTAKE: 123 g (exceeds the RDA for omega 6 and 3 by a little)
- PROTIEN INTAKE: 97 g (adequate)
- B VITAMINS: greatly exceeds the RDA (same deal as Freelee above, lots of B6)
- K2: greatly exceeds the RDA
- CHOLINE: 360 mg (84% of the RDA for women)
- vitamin E: 122% of the RDA
- vitamin A: 251% of the RDA of RAE (over twenty thousand micrograms of beta-carotene)

Ellen and her husband and children appear to be quite healthy, and she has birthed at home without any complications.

When I have more time, I would like to post some thoughts insofar as why veganism might apparently heal people of arthritis and asthma other such diseases you also hear of people healing on carnivore. I find it fascinating that two polar opposite extremes can yield similar healing stories...

Rachel, Hermes and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#30 · May 19, 2023, 12:11 pm

Just found another good video from Angela Stokes (Matt Monarch's ex-wife), who was raw vegan for 12 years (she birthed 2 healthy children during that time) and intuitively started eating eggs and fish:

https://youtu.be/L01bKVhVbbE

PJ has reacted to this post.

The false carotenoid conversion factors for vitamin A

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