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Thiamine story

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This is an answer to @matrixik's questions.

I started, together with my husband, high dose thiamine supplementation at the start of 2016 and we kept it up for more than two years, tapering into summer 2019. We did it because we realized that we had a lot of the symptoms of thiamine deficiency , and also had been eating and doing all kinds of things which could bring on this condition.

I had at one point tried Thiamine Hcl, which just made me nervous, and sublingual coenzymated Thiamine which did nothing for us. In Japan where the lipophilic thiamines were developed, one of their best selling over the counter drugs is TTFD in the form od Alinamin sold by Takeda Laboratories who invented TTFD so I bought this, thinking it might be the best. It gave immediate results.

I then read some of the articles, then the books of Dr Derrick Lonsdale (the first one has disappeared and is now replaced by a more complete and recent one) as well as many articles he wrote on the site "Hormone Matters". @Matrixik  you can find everything on Russian websites the book is available.

We used about 200 mg of lipophilic thiamine per day, 5 days a week. Rotating the different kinds

  • TTFD as in Allithiamine (with added phosphorus) and Lipothiamine (recommended by Dr Lonsdale but it has a bit of ALA added, which for me is difficult because of past mercury problems)
  • TTFD as in Alinamin EXPLUS which has other things
  • Sulbutiamine, which is supposed to go to the brain, good effect both on myself and husband
  • Benfotiamine, not recommended by Dr Lonsdale. Because sometimes it seemed that TTFD was a bit difficult on the liver (maybe inducing a Vitamin A detox?) so Benfo was a soft option, but if the good effects of TTFD were related to its help on Vit A detoxification then maybe it just meant Benfo would be less effective?

Lots of the good things that seem to happen to those on the low Vitamin A diet happened during that time. But we started being overwhelmed by what we did not realize were Vitamin A DETOX symptoms!

During these three years, lots of memories came back, in bursts, never expected. I cannot say how long it took, but let's say I had lost most of my memories of what had happened between 2000 and 2013. It was a terrible feeling. Even reading work I had done before I could not even understand what that learned and brilliantly intuitive person had written. It was like being dead but still alive, in a special hell where you have to live eternally without the knowledge of your real self.

One thing I noticed, memories that reappear are different; from Thiamine it is like an universal Truth, where you can play different roles, and maybe change the subsequent course of your life, memories from Vitamin A detox are like getting rid of consequences of memories brought by others, getting your grandfather's problems out of your life. In that sense they are more personal than the memories of thiamine, because in Truth you are not really separate from the rest of the world.

Difficult to express, but when you get them, you will know!

At the moment we take no Thiamine, only supplement is Activated charcoal, which seems to be helping a lot with the infernal detox.

For the moment, my hypothesis is that our Thiamine deficiency allowed us, together with a diet full of eggs, liver, fish livers, butter and home made ewes yoghurt, to accumulate Vitamin A.

First the Thiamine Deficiency, then the Vitamin A poisoning.

Thiamine helped with Vitamin A detox, but since we did not know what was happening, we kept eating more and more eggs and liver, because that made us feel better in the short run, stopping the detox.

But our eyes kept getting worse and worse.

I have much more to say about this A/B1 balance, but I do not have the eyesight to go on, so will write when I can.

 

 

 

Wow, thank you very much for providing all this information. I'm hoping that I will also get my memories back.

Is there any concrete reason why you are not taking thiamine now?

If you are eating similar to what Grant share in his books (like lot of rice) then diet alone could be lacking enough of B1, and I think body does not store it so we need to continuously supply it to our body.

I have a feeling that thiamine helps detox vitamin A. And I have been on the diet for 15 weeks now, and the detox is very hard. Only for the last few days because we started taking activated charcoal has it become  more bearable. So I did not want to take extra thiamine . Maybe I am wrong, but it feels that way.

Also thiamine is supposed to stay for 14 days in the body, but that is for normal thiamine. Maybe lipophilic thiamine stays longer?

We eat Grant's diet, and we eat beans or lentils every day as well as meat so I suppose there is a lot of thiamine there.

There is also another point : the amount of thiamine needed by the body varies, the amount of thiamine provided varies, but there is another variable : Time. There is a respiration to thiamine in the body.

There is a very interesting free book, in it lots of wild and not so wild ideas, with a lot of details about this. Asttrophysiology and Yeast, by Guy Wonder. Worth reading if you are interested in thiamine.

Damn! I just ruined all credibility I might have had by giving this reference!

 

Quote from Ourania on March 12, 2020, 6:42 am

We eat Grant's diet, and we eat beans or lentils every day as well as meat so I suppose there is a lot of thiamine there.

I was eating like this for months with at least 160 grams of beans per day (rice - mostly white - around 250 g, different meats around 200 g) and it was still not enough for me. I started feeling internal warmth only after I increased salt intake and started supplementing thiamine. So diet alone was definitely not enough for me...

Thank you @matrixik, how did you notice that the diet was not enough for you?

I started low vitA 1,5 year ago. At the beginning I had some mild detox symptoms but I also had some nice progress. I think it could be called honeymoon period like in almost every diet. But I think after 6-8 months I started getting worse, I was more lethargic, started feeling colder, morning oral temperature lowered to 36°C an d sometimes even less (in summer it wasn't a problem). Feeling sicker. I though that maybe it's because I'm not going 100% vitA free, I eat like that 5-6 days a week and on weekends when visiting family or going out with someone I would eat most of the stuff (just steering clear from biggest vitA sources). I was waiting because I would go mad trying stay 100% on this diet, and talking to everyone why was bothersome to me.

Just to be clear I really like Grant approach to people with problems like this. He is not telling you (like most "health gurus") "you are doing this or that wrong". He is looking into why and searching for answers. I'm programmer and I love this way of thinking.

So autumn come and I started getting colder when sleeping. I was almost freezing when i was sleeping under warm blanket when room had around 21°C. I started wearing socks and it was still not enough. So I started thinking something is wrong with my metabolic rate. In summer I increased my caloric intake thinking this would help but I only gained 2 or 3 kilograms. And I bet almost none of them was muscles, everything went to fat. I'm training pilates from 1 year and most of the time progress was tiny...

So going back to metabolic rate I started some searching and found on some blog I was following long time ago about increasing testosterone naturally (anabolicmen.com) have course about increasing metabolic rate. So I bought it. I did not started following it fully. He is suggesting for example that we need to eat more vitA because it's needed for production of hormones:

"For example, vitamin A is used to create steroid hormones.347,348 When cholesterol in the blood combines with thyroid hormone and vitamin A, they make pregnenolone. Pregnenolone is the “mother” of all steroid hormones, and it can get converted down into hormones like DHEA, progesterone, testosterone and DHT. These hormones are all very protective for metabolism and enhance long-term health and metabolic rate."

Or more liver and yolks, because he is suggesting to eat a lot of fruits because fructose don't need insulin to be absorbed and body produce more energy from it than from starches. But to avoid fattening own liver we need a lot of choline (so eat liver and yolks that have lot of it).

Random interesting info: apparently fructose speeds up the metabolism of ethanol and acetaldehyde, also prevents the metabolic changes that happen during a hangover from drinking too much. (I can give references if anyone interested).

But I started following some other recommendations:
 - avoiding PUFA (including omega 3, when body is going low on omega 3 and omega 6 it's starting producing Mead acid that's apparently more temperature stable than both of the previous one), but I still eat fish from time to time
 - eat mostly saturated fat (refined coconut oil, some olive oil and rest from meats, some butter on weekends)
 - more collagen/gelatin, gelatin contains the pro-metabolic amino acids glycine, proline and alanine, which balance out the anti-metabolic amino acids (tryptophan, cysteine and methionine) when eating together.
 - eating pretty high carb, but I eat mostly starches from rice instead of fruits (my tooths are sensitive to acids...)
 - eating more sodium, this one was biggest hit for me, he recommend eating 50% more sodium than potassium in diet (for ion balance, sodium-potassium pump etc.), Cronometer showed that I eat over 4 grams of potassium per day (thx to beans) so I was aiming at 6 grams of sodium (that's 15 grams of salt per day)

What helped most or maybe better to say was most noticeable was starting eating more salt. I'm preparing rice with other vegetables and beans (beans cocked earlier but I add them with rice for second cocking, laziness) for whole day at once in Instant Pod. I though it will be salty, but to my surprise it only got tastier and I'm not feeling it salty. It's spread over all day, if you try eating it at once it have laxative effect. After like 4 days with salt I started feeling small internal warmth, hurray. After one month I did not need socks for sleeping any more. It was great until it's not. After 2 months I started getting nervous when sleeping, not sure how to describe it. I was getting unrest sleep, and started waking up more and more times.

In the course was some short info about getting B vitamins (no direct reference to thiamine) but I somehow skipped over it because I really don't like pills.
Not knowing what to do anymore I ordered Smith hair testing without support (not available on page, you need to have his course bought and then you can mail his secretary for it, package with support is too expensive for me). It was at time when he still was suggesting taking Benfotiamine (started taking Allithiamine latter as it's not available in Poland, I need to get it from iherb, for me this form is stronger). Even that I don't like it I started taking many supplements he recommended to me around the end of December 2019 (it's expensive...). I'm not sure with supplements helped most but after reading more of Dr Lonsdale blog posts I think thiamine was the missing link to fix problems with sleep and increase my metabolic rate even more. My body got even warmer 🙂 Morning oral temperature frequently hit around 36.6°C. I started seeing actual strength progress.
I'm taking now around 150 mg of Allithiamine per day (and many more supplements...).

And I started giving thiamine to my mum as an experiment if it help her with constant coldness. After we beat together her Hashimoto 3-4 years ago (not with low vitA diet, her many endocrinologists she was changing still think she is taking Euthyrox all the time 😛 ) she did not even question me too much but simply started taking it as I requested her to.

Well, it's got long...

@Ourania
Where can I get more information about new version of Dr Lonsdale book and when it will appear?

Till now I was only reading his posts and comments on hormonesmatter.com

Thank you very much for that long post @matrixik! It might be invaluable at some point for many people.

Dr Lonsdale wrote an enormous amount of papers during his long career.

At one point (1987 I think maybe when he retired) he wrote a book that disappeared (burnt in a warehouse fire), with all his observations on thiamine. This is https://www.amazon.com/Nutritionists-Guide-Clinical-Use-Vitamin/dp/0943685028

This is very expensive because there are nearly no copies around.

Then he wrote another book published July 2017, more complete because it included discoveries he made during 30 extra years of work : https://www.amazon.com/Thiamine-Deficiency-Disease-Dysautonomia-Malnutrition-ebook/dp/B073NCFNLX

There is no other book to be published.

These are expensive, but you may read parts on Google books, also they are available on Russian pirate websites.

We have been back on thiamine for a while. I feel that it speeds up detox, but I am not sure. Maybe the detox unveils a thiamine deficiency? There are two sides to this.

For the moment, I am in doubt.

Because of Covid, some attention has been placed on Kawasaki disease. Dr Lonsdale had been treating Kawasaki disease with thiamine supplementation.

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/kawasaki-disease/

How does it exactly work? There is this interesting article about the kosmotropic effect of TTFD, suggesting that the effect of TTFD (and not other types of Thiamine studied) is due to its effect on the ability of cells to hold on to potassium.

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/thiamine-deficiency-causes-intracellular-potassium-wasting/

Now I wonder if this potassium leak is not involved in the "detox" symptoms? Maybe this is interesting to @ggenereux2014. Why are some people suffering more than others? Or at different times? At first I had thought that our 2 + years of high thiamine supplementation must have somehow replenished our stores. But we suffer a lot of the detox pains, and even though this is getting better after 5 months, it is very far from plain sailing for us.

Dr Lonsdale does indicate that at the beginning of TTFD supplementation there is a bad time, after a short honeymoon period during which the body learns to utilize thiamine again after deficiency. Would this be related to a big Vitamin A detox?

Sorry if I am not more clear, maybe someone can comment?

 

Quote from Matrixik on March 14, 2020, 2:55 pm

@Ourania
Where can I get more information about new version of Dr Lonsdale book and when it will appear?

Till now I was only reading his posts and comments on hormonesmatter.com

here is the book , please do let us know the summary of it when you finish .

@matrixik

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