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Thiamine story

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Quote from Matrixik on March 12, 2020, 7:16 am
Quote from Ourania on March 12, 2020, 6:42 am

We eat Grant's diet, and we eat beans or lentils every day as well as meat so I suppose there is a lot of thiamine there.

I was eating like this for months with at least 160 grams of beans per day (rice - mostly white - around 250 g, different meats around 200 g) and it was still not enough for me. I started feeling internal warmth only after I increased salt intake and started supplementing thiamine. So diet alone was definitely not enough for me...

My body temp really ramped up after including oats and whole grain bread. That was from the first day of eating it, and so I decided to cut out all refined bread and rice in favour of whole grain products. Now my temp is more unstable, but it´s definitely higher. 

 

 

Quote from Ourania on May 15, 2020, 10:01 pm

We have been back on thiamine for a while. I feel that it speeds up detox, but I am not sure. Maybe the detox unveils a thiamine deficiency? There are two sides to this.

For the moment, I am in doubt.

Because of Covid, some attention has been placed on Kawasaki disease. Dr Lonsdale had been treating Kawasaki disease with thiamine supplementation.

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/kawasaki-disease/

How does it exactly work? There is this interesting article about the kosmotropic effect of TTFD, suggesting that the effect of TTFD (and not other types of Thiamine studied) is due to its effect on the ability of cells to hold on to potassium.

https://www.hormonesmatter.com/thiamine-deficiency-causes-intracellular-potassium-wasting/

Now I wonder if this potassium leak is not involved in the "detox" symptoms? Maybe this is interesting to @ggenereux. Why are some people suffering more than others? Or at different times? At first I had thought that our 2 + years of high thiamine supplementation must have somehow replenished our stores. But we suffer a lot of the detox pains, and even though this is getting better after 5 months, it is very far from plain sailing for us.

Dr Lonsdale does indicate that at the beginning of TTFD supplementation there is a bad time, after a short honeymoon period during which the body learns to utilize thiamine again after deficiency. Would this be related to a big Vitamin A detox?

Sorry if I am not more clear, maybe someone can comment?

 

A also wonder about this. Is the "paradox" as Lonsdale calls it, because of a defect in thiamine utilization, or VA detox, or any other built up toxin? I'm 4 weeks in of eating much more thiamine (food only though) and my chronic headache seems to be clearing (extremely slowly), but sometimes I have worsening which looks like VA detox symptoms; fatigue, sometimes irritability, bloodshot eyes, worse headache etc. On the plus side it single handidly cured my anhedonia, which was absolutely fantastic. 

Yes thiamine cured anhedonia for us.

But vitamin A detox brought it back worse than ever!!!! :(-

So there is definitely a link.

And I find the "kosmotropic" effect of TTFD very interesting. Switching from one side to the other of the Trinity is impaired when you are Vit A toxic. Anhedonia is bad but Bad Luck is even worse. Or should I say the inability to govern your boat.

There are subtle shades of memory as there are subtle shades of unhappiness.

@ourania

By employing two-dimensional electrophoresis and mass spectrometry, we identified proteins affected by RA treatment. In addition to previously reported decrease in ENO1 expression, we found that RA led to significantly reduced levels of glyceraldehyde-3-phosphate dehydrogenase (GAPDH), pyruvate kinase isoenzymes M1/M2 (PKM1/M2), peptidyl-prolyl cis-trans isomerase A (PPIA), transketolase (TKT), annexin A2 (ANXA2), glutathione S-transferase P (GSTP1) and peroxiredoxin 2 (PRDX2) as compared to untreated control.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20538039

What it is saying is that retinoic acid in more than optimal amounts causes enzyme deficiencies including a deficiency of transketolase.

Low transketolase activity indicates thiamin deficiency.

I don't supplement with thiamin, I make sure I have a high intake from food though. As you can see from the study RA doesn't just affect thiamin dependent enzymes.

The solution is what we already know, we have to deplete VA down to normal levels before we can expect normal enzyme activity and probably before we can expect normal thiamin levels.

Very interesting @tim, thank you for the information.

Of course there may be other reasons, apart from RA toxicity, for thiamine deficiency. I certainly had several of them in the past.

 

Great post @tim-2. Thanks 

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