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Thiamine story
Thiamine HCl and allithiamine are different. Alli doesn't need to be 'processed' by your body, it transport directly into cells, I used one or half capsule(25mg) every second day and felt good on it.
I just finished testing 2grams B1 HCl everyday for the last 4 weeks, since it needs to be processed, taking huge amounts saturates the body and gets this jump started. This experiment seemed to help my sleep issues, but by 4 weeks I was feeling overstimulated and have stopped the test. I use about 50mg to 100mg B1 HCl per day now, I think this is helpful with low VA for me. Also I would rather my body processes what B1 it needs, and not use Alli.
But I would suggest either, good to experiment with, and see how you feel
Alli ranges suggested are from 50mg to 200mg per day, I would start low and build up, I found taking it every day was too much, so dosed every second day.
@orion, I think that I am a good candidate for this therapy but I am still reading everything I can get my hands on.
There seems to be a generational “energy deficit “ in my family and I wonder if this would help. I have had a very hard time with the B vitamins in the past but not Allithiamine, so this will be my focus.
Thank you for the info.
For a while now, I've suspected that thiamine supplementation slows Vitamin A elimination. I'm more sure of it now after having started and stopped it numerous times over the past 4 months. I'm guessing it is acting as an antioxidant when taken in large doses, which is slowing the dehydrogenase system just like Vitamin C (and Vitamin E?). I've seen a few mentions in published papers that it acts as an antioxidant. Other B vitamins show signs of antioxidant activity as well, so taking a B complex might be as bad or worse than taking an isolated dose of thiamine.
I'm wondering if this is why so many people report bad responses to B vitamin supplements in conjunction with Vitamin A problems.
I started taking thiamine and a B complex after listening to Elliot Overton and reading about Lonsdale's work. I was a good candidate for thiamine deficiency, and I was worried about forming endogenous oxalates from B1 and B6 deficiencies because I've had oxalate problems from dietary intake. When I started taking thiamine and a B complex, my nightly respiratory rate, heart rate variability, and resting heart rate gradually worsened, and I had really weird energy and brain fog problems. At first I thought this might be the "paradox" that Lonsdale describes, so I persisted, going on and off the thiamine and B complex in different doses trying to understand the effect. I never seemed to feel better though.
Now that I've cut out both the thiamine and B complex for over a week, I've got Vitamin A toxicity symptoms returning that I don't think I've had since before the B vitamin supplementation. The symptoms are ones that I've come to associate with Vitamin A dumping: a strange sensation in my nostrils/sinuses and burning upper eyelids.
It could be that B vitamin supplementation is more beneficial than avoiding it for some people, but my experience suggests you should consider its potential for slowing Vitamin A elimination.
@wavygravygadzooks What type of thiamine did you test with and how much per day? thanks
I tried benfotiamine (Benfomax by Pure Encapsulations), benfotiamine + thiamine HCl (MegaBenfotiamine by Life Extension), and TTFD (Elliot Overton's product called Thiamax, which is supposedly equivalent to allithiamine). The B complex I used (Pure Encapsulations B-Complex Plus) had thiamine HCl in it.
I always opened the capsules and took between 1/8 and 1/2 of the amount at a time, which meant I was getting between 25 and 125 mg of some form of thiamine each day, often in two divided doses.
Thiamax is not identical to Allithiamine.
The product Allithiamine contains TTFD:
I don't think it's the exact same chemical originally derived from garlic, but it's very similar, and it's what's being sold under the name Allithiamine. I couldn't find true allithiamine when I was searching for types of thiamine, probably because it's way easier to sythesize TTFD than extract allithiamine from garlic and because TTFD is what's studied most in the research?
Interesting. I posted last week about how I was taking my b vities daily and then stopped cold for some reason the next day, LOL.
However, I do feel like I really did need to catch up on my B12 and possibly other B vities.
It wouldn't surprise me if taking b-vities (or any vitie) is something we NEED to SOMETIMES and SPARINGLY but that they can turn into just another thing to get rid of...once we are replete. hmm
I'm finding this stuff so fascinating and so endlessly confusing!! We are coming up on two years (!!) of our Vitamin A detox, and about three months in we hit a wall that I (three months after that) decided must be our long-developing B1 and B2 deficiencies (due to ten years doing GAPS, no grains, super high colorful veggies, low carb, etc. etc.). I began supplementing us with B1, B2, B5, biotin, and re-started occasional zinc/selenium. (B complexes were off the table for me because i have had horrible reactions to folate/folic acid in all forms, and seem to exacerbate other family members' symptoms for unknown reasons.)
Soon (around 6 month month mark of our detox), for the first time in a decade, we were able to tolerate beans! So I felt a bit better about dietary B vitamin sources. I also started using a lot of mushrooms in my cooking. After a few months of continuing to give supplements, I stopped giving them to the younger kiddos, until only myself and one of my teenagers was taking the Bs.
Fast forward to ~18 months of our detox, and my little guy was born. I am never sure what to do about supplements when I'm breastfeeding, so I stopped the supps for a time. I was also very hungry, as usual when nursing a newborn, so at one point when he was about two months old, I thought I'd add some barley to our repertoire. It might have been a coincidence, but baby's bottom got BRIGHT red, and he had all sorts of reflux the next day, and obvious discomfort, so I thought: I get the message, no more barley/gluten for us! Instead, I thought, maybe I should re-start the B1/B2/etc. supplements, since we seem stuck with all this white rice.
Anyway, the connection I didn't make until this week is that...Baby's bum stayed red, more or less, even after I stopped the barley. It would get especially bad if I ate dairy, or once when I actually tried sourdough wheat bread (that was terrible - he stopped sleeping!! Definitely not doing that again for awhile), but the red butt was never normal again even on the good days.
Last weekend, I was sighing for the umpteenth time of my now-eight-month-old's bright red rashy bottom. And then for the next three days, for various reasons, I forgot to take my B vitamins. And what is so interesting is that his bottom finally cleared up! I thought I'd wait on taking the vitamins again, so for the past two days I also didn't take them, and his butt is actually normal looking today.
The sum total of my supps has been: B1/B2/paththenic acid/biotin/zinc and selenium twice a week/vitamin D when it was less sunny. My N=1 thus far is that Baby gets rashes/digestive issues if I eat dairy or gluten grains. And Baby seems to get rashes if I take these supplements. I wonder why??? Does if have anything to do with vitamin A, or is the effect simply from the Bs?
I never used to take any supplements at all, back before and then for the first few years of GAPS. And then as everything was so challenging, and my health seemed to be deteriorating, I eventually starting "trying things." Eventually after that, six years ago, I was trying to find anything to pull myself from the chasm of doom that was my head...and I was trying sooooooo many things and eventually began a Walsh protocol that saved my life. Problem was, the pills! Hundreds and eventually thousands of dollars spent on supplements, for me and my kids.
When we started the A detox, it had been five years of heavy duty supplements. With excitement, I stopped taking them all, but then re-started some almost immediately. It was hard to believe that my health could stay stable without zinc and B6 supplements! Eventually I compromised with stopping the B6, and reducing the zinc. So, for the past nearly 2 years I've been working with my own greatly reduced supplement schedule even as I've stopped almost all supps for my kids.
This week I ponder: what might happen if I stop taking any supplements at all?! Except, you know, occasional magnesium for muscle cramps, etc. What will happen?! Will the sky fall in? I'm only half joking. It's hard to imagine that I am consuming all the nutrients I and Baby need (although he is eating well already, the first of my five who has, so I think he's getting great nutrition in general).
....
It’s very tricky. I’d avoid anything that upsets your baby’s skin. I come from a nutritional therapy background which despite the title was in fact a lot about giving supplements. Everyone is put on a multi. I ended up poisoning myself with a (moderate) vA supplement on advice from this course. That’s how I ended up here. This has made me super wary about any supplements. The way I look at it is that the right supplements are game changers but getting the right ones for your body is very difficult and you are more likely to do harm. I actually now think that often no supplements are safer.
Have you considered testing? I regularly test my minerals and find I do need to supplement some as vA detox depletes specific ones. I’m happy supplementing minerals that I can see are being depleted on hair and blood tests. That seems safe and sensible.
Did you take zinc and B6 for pyroluria? Or other reasons. This is the other exception I have made on supplementation at the moment. I’ve gone back on my pyroluria protocol and will continue with it unless someone convinces me that this is no longer a problem for me. My old nutritional therapist says it’s a lifelong problem. Others disagree. I have a feeling that vA toxicity and it’s affect on the liver maybe involved so perhaps it will resolve. After much reading, pondering and experimenting without it, I’ve decided that I likely still need to address pyroluria.
Apart from that I’ve played around with various Bs but am not sure they helped. I was taking a B multi to help my fingernails but then read some information suggesting that B2 excess was involved with eye floaters. Some of the work on B1 deficiency is very convincing and I have taken that in the past. Someone on Dr Smith network had extreme B12 deficiency after covid and I’ve tried that too. I currently have reached no conclusion on these Bs. I’m following the precautionary principle and not taking anything unless there is overwhelming evidence that it’s safe and required.
The only other supplements I personally would consider are those to help gut dysbiosis. In fact improving the diversity of the gut bacteria could solve any B vitamin problems as they make them for us!