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Thiamine story
So one of my children is having a disturbingly prolonged "cold." We all had it three weeks ago...but this child is literally getting weaker by the day, and somehow the symptoms are making me think of B1 deficiency: pain in legs, indigestion/nausea/loss of appetite, weakness, "pain everywhere". This child is a picky eater, and so is mostly eating meat and eggs with some bread, some apples, but nothing really appeals and I don't want to push because every time food is ingested "it hurts and makes my tummy feel slushy".
But now my brain is forgetting all the important things I remember from this thread and the Lonsdale ebook I purchased last year that feels too long to read now with a sick kiddo... If I were to supplement large doses of Thiamine alone, would that be a bad idea? Is it possible that four years into a Vitamin A detox, we are still so messed up in the B vitamin department that this could be a B1 deficiency symptom/reaction to a small infection?? I'm having trouble having a meta-overview of our health at this point - I don't want to take a slew of supplements, but B vitamin metabolism just don't seem to be Right for any of us yet...
Any thoughts welcomed!
are you sure he does not have an infection, my son had similar symptoms, eventually also developing low-grade fever.
also, Terri Van Kempen is a great resource for information in Thiamin. She is in the LYL program and Vitamin A Toxicity facebook page.
Hope your son feels better soon!
I’m sorry your kid is sick, @sarabeth-matilsky! ☹️
If I were to supplement large doses of Thiamine alone, would that be a bad idea? Is it possible that four years into a Vitamin A detox, we are still so messed up in the B vitamin department that this could be a B1 deficiency symptom/reaction to a small infection??
Disclaimer: This is for informational purposes. It’s not medical advice.
Yeah, thiamine is such powerful stuff, I’d never try mega dosing right off the bat without medical supervision, especially in a situation where I do not know what is going on for sure and an individual is in a weakened state...
Dr. Antonio Costantini typically slowly increased it to watch out for a “paradox” effect, which can happen if one gets too much.
Dr. Lonsdale suggests taking thiamine with magnesium and a b-vitamin-complex (for adults, he would typically suggest 5o mg allithiamine once or twice daily). Dr. Antonito Costantini did not use magnesium or a b-complex (for adult patients, he’d typically start at 300 mg thiamine hcl).
Might be worth seeing the doctor. I dunno if your kid is taking zinc supplements, but copper deficiency can happen with excessive zinc intake. That is something a doctor is best equipped to diagnose through blood testing.
Thanks so much for your thoughts, and I should have prefaced my tired-mama query by specifically noting that I never expect medical advice, and always appreciate thoughtful opinions. 🙂
I will look up Van Kempen and also thanks for the reminder about magnesium.
It was late for me when I posted that, @sarabeth-matilsky, so I apologize if my tone came across as criticism or skepticism (neither were intended). Thiamine deficiency does make sense! It is the only B I supplement myself, but I feel you with regards to the B vitamin struggles in general (such a puzzle).
With regards to the disclaimer, I should’ve said “I know you know you already know this,” because that was meant for anyone who might be reading along (hi, lurkers!). 😅
Also (reading over my comment) if copper deficiency were a problem, you’d think your kid would be craving peanut butter and nuts and stuff...
Hope your kid feels better soon and that you’re able to get some sleep! 🙂
@puddleduck, I'm just mulling over the B1 stuff, and wondering (disclaimer: won't blame you for any medical decisions I make) 🙂 ....would you be willing to share the dose of thiamine + related supps that you currently take? I'm trying to think about certain symptoms we have that I often attribute to oxalates but also to thiamine deficiency...I really don't want to restart tons of supplements, but I also don't want to supplement one thing in isolation. One of the lifesaving features of Walsh protocols for me was that it was extremely targeted, but added in just enough cofactors to make it sustainable (UNTIL the doctor added vitamin A and calcium to the mix).
Oh yeah, sure @sarabeth-matilsky! 🙂
Thiamine
I take between 250 mg to 500 mg thiamine hcl daily, splitting the dose between morning and evening.
When I first utilized Dr. Costantini’s High Dose Thiamine Therapy, I had worked my way up to 3 grams daily following the approach outlined in his study on fibromyalgia. Most of his fibromyalgia patients only needed 1,800 mg daily. So the amount to bring symptom relief can be quite individual. Around a year later, I was able to reduce my dose from 3 grams to 2 grams.
I purchased the powder through Bulk Supplements, starting with the little bag to see if it would help. Once I knew it did, I got the larger bag (so affordable compared to capsules). Mixed in water it is quite bitter, but I kinda like it at this point because my body knows it is good stuff! 😂
Zinc Deficiency and Thiamine Supplementation
Here is a relevant excerpt from my log:
According to “role of vitamin-zinc interactions on in vitro zinc uptake by human erythrocytes” (PubMed: ), thiamine is in higher demand when one is deficient in zinc:
“Under the zinc-deficient state, thiamine significantly enhanced the zinc uptakes (p< 0.05), whereas ascorbic acid and riboflavin inhibited zinc uptakes (p< 0.05).”*
Perhaps that is why I didn’t notice any benefit from supplementing riboflavin, and possibly one factor insofar as why some here might be sensitive to it.
*Source: Role of vitamin-zinc interactions on in vitro zinc uptake by human erythrocytes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15235145/
Supplementing zinc in order to address my zinc deficiency may have lowered my need for thiamine. I still take more zinc than is typically recommended, because I feel best on it and my labs haven’t improved in that area yet.
Magnesium
Currently, I take 500 mg magnesium citrate daily (this is the form suggested to help with oxalate), and I use topical magnesium chloride spray:
https://theherbalacademy.com/homemade-magnesium-oil/
But magnesium L-threonate is the best oral magnesium supplement I have tried (and I will go back on it once I’ve figured out my oxalate situation). Some extended family members love it, too (they are able to tolerate allithiamine, so they take the two supplements together to support energy and focus). It is expensive, however. We take the Life Extension brand at their suggested dose.
https://www.lifeextension.com/wellness/supplements/magnesium-threonate-benefits
I like it so much because it seems to enhance the same sort of things thiamine does, especially memory, energy, clarity, and focus.
It is worth researching the different forms of magnesium to determine which might be most suitable, though. I have a friend who swears by the glycinate form for sleep and to improve anxiety. I think Dr. Lonsdale suggests the malate form, as it is one of the most absorbable.
B-Complex
I have tried taking different B vitamins separately, as well as complex combos, but they either don’t seem to do anything or cause a negative reaction. 🙃 Chronometer says I’m getting them in foods, at least. Maybe that’s good enough? I do think the thiamine has improved my ability to absorb nutrition from foods.
Elliot Overton had recent YouTube video featuring a young man, who had been underweight and unable to digest his food properly, share about how thiamine had improved his ability to absorb and utilize nutrition. He was so weak prior to supplementation that girls were able to beat him at arm wrestling, but now is now able to have the energy to go to the gym and build strength. I felt so happy for him! It was a remarkable change. (I will post the video here below this post.)
Ah, what a shame about the fatal flaw in the Walsh protocol... It sounds like they have figured out a lot otherwise?
Let me know if you figure out anything helpful regarding the extra Bs!
Thanks, @puddleduck, that's super helpful. I am restarting thiamine today, adjusted for child's bodyweight, and possibly zinc. I'm also giving magnesium in the form of electrolyte drink...but I wonder if I need to add more of that on its own (why are those dratted pills always so large?!!).
I keep getting lost in the weeds in terms of understanding the interaction of all the Bs, though, and whether cofactors/other Bs are important along with thiamine. Everyone's got their therapeutic hammer: methylfolate! Thiamine! B12! Biotin! Niacin!! B6 plus zinc!!! And I can't wrap my brain around which are relevant in my or my kids' cases, and how to know. I'm tempted to try a B complex for this child, but like you say, my experience in the past has been either no reaction or negative reaction to certain Bs (folate for sure, personally - although this was prior to VAD - but also there are supposedly ways to overdose on all of them).
I would love to hear any and all thoughts on Why Thiamine To Megadose...how to eliminate the other possibilities, or whether they're important too??
Sigh. Off to sad, anxious child. Minor improvements in energy this afternoon, after 300mg of thiamine plus some zinc...we'll see tomorrow.