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This was a good theory with mediocre results
Quote from
Armin on October 8, 2022, 7:14 am
Grants grand hypothesis is that people are sick because they eat too much VA and that it's not a vitamin at all, this is false because many people who are sick try the very restrictive low VA diet and don't heal all their health problems, some people actually feel worse but people here want to say it's "detox".
Why may this be the case in your opinion?
We know it sure isn't Vitamin A deficiency.
Grants grand hypothesis is that people are sick because they eat too much VA and that it's not a vitamin at all, this is false because many people who are sick try the very restrictive low VA diet and don't heal all their health problems, some people actually feel worse but people here want to say it's "detox".
Why may this be the case in your opinion?
We know it sure isn't Vitamin A deficiency.
Quote from
Jenny on October 8, 2022, 7:25 am
Interesting debate.
I was an extremely clear case of vA poisoning. Got ill when i started the supplement. Felt a lot better when I cut it out. My main symptom was bizarre weight gain. I had others but this was the easiest to follow precisely. I drew a graph of my weight. Since birth of first child completely stable for 17 years. Then in 2013 a dramatic 20lb gain for no apparent reason. This levelled off but never went away. Then in 2018 sudddenly it happened again. This time another 10lbs on. This put me 30lbs over my normal weight and well into the overweight range, a place I’d never been in my entire life. Then I discovered Grants work and thought maybe it’s the 5000IU retinyl palmitate I’m taking (at that point recommended by Garrett Smith for high calcium). I’d also been having head pressure and light sensitivity. Then I looked back at the supplements I was taking in 2013 and in June 2013, the very month my weight started to shoot up, I’d added high strength cod liver oil!! Luckily I’d changed to another omega 3 product after a while. That was enough for me. I lowered my vA intake. I never went VERY low vA and I never excluded food groups. I lost my excess weight and the other bizarre symptoms went away too.
However, sadly I think I did make a big mistake with my low vA diet because I wasn’t mindful of my choline intake. I now think I was showing signs of choline and acetylcholine deficiency. Unforeseen consequences of limited diets. I cut out eggs. I don’t digest meat well. Big mistake I now think. Shot myself in the foot. I’m now trying to sort out the consequences of this. At least I’m not fat anymore! Andrew Baird on FB or on Garrett Smith’s network is the man talking sense about this. I’m becoming more and more convinced. The one thing I could never improve was my anxiety. I think B6 was part of the answer but if you don’t have acetylcholine then you can’t run your parasympathetic (rest and digest) system so you tend to stay stuck in sympathetic (flight or fight). That was me. I’m so much better with B6 and choline. So much better. Beware of unintended consequences.
Interesting debate.
I was an extremely clear case of vA poisoning. Got ill when i started the supplement. Felt a lot better when I cut it out. My main symptom was bizarre weight gain. I had others but this was the easiest to follow precisely. I drew a graph of my weight. Since birth of first child completely stable for 17 years. Then in 2013 a dramatic 20lb gain for no apparent reason. This levelled off but never went away. Then in 2018 sudddenly it happened again. This time another 10lbs on. This put me 30lbs over my normal weight and well into the overweight range, a place I’d never been in my entire life. Then I discovered Grants work and thought maybe it’s the 5000IU retinyl palmitate I’m taking (at that point recommended by Garrett Smith for high calcium). I’d also been having head pressure and light sensitivity. Then I looked back at the supplements I was taking in 2013 and in June 2013, the very month my weight started to shoot up, I’d added high strength cod liver oil!! Luckily I’d changed to another omega 3 product after a while. That was enough for me. I lowered my vA intake. I never went VERY low vA and I never excluded food groups. I lost my excess weight and the other bizarre symptoms went away too.
However, sadly I think I did make a big mistake with my low vA diet because I wasn’t mindful of my choline intake. I now think I was showing signs of choline and acetylcholine deficiency. Unforeseen consequences of limited diets. I cut out eggs. I don’t digest meat well. Big mistake I now think. Shot myself in the foot. I’m now trying to sort out the consequences of this. At least I’m not fat anymore! Andrew Baird on FB or on Garrett Smith’s network is the man talking sense about this. I’m becoming more and more convinced. The one thing I could never improve was my anxiety. I think B6 was part of the answer but if you don’t have acetylcholine then you can’t run your parasympathetic (rest and digest) system so you tend to stay stuck in sympathetic (flight or fight). That was me. I’m so much better with B6 and choline. So much better. Beware of unintended consequences.
Liz, Ourania and 2 other users have reacted to this post.
LizOuraniakathy55woodCarnivore
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 7:37 am
Quote from
Kurtis on October 8, 2022, 3:45 am
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 3:40 am
@kurtis that is not the case. It is not like I had no idea about nutrition before starting with vit A detox.. In eyes of "nutritionist" my diet was very healthy full of micronutrients and balanced.. It's not like I was eating pound a liver a day or something. But I was eating all foods that are highest in vit A in small amounts every day for dacade.. Another thing is that the same diet for someone else could be perfectly fine. If that person doesn't have other health issue. Can have sun exposure daily etc.. So in fact I started to get sick because of "healthy diet" that is recommended by many nutritionists.. Before that I was on bodybuilding diet basically meat and rice and I was ok. The problem started when I started with stupid diets like keto, paleo, Ray Peat, Morley Robbins etc..
Grants grand hypothesis is that people are sick because they eat too much VA and that it's not a vitamin at all, this is false because many people who are sick try the very restrictive low VA diet and don't heal all their health problems, some people actually feel worse but people here want to say it's "detox". They may heal a little bit but you can't chalk that up to VA alone because of how many things are excluded on a low VA diet. I can't spell this out any simpler for you.
So I will say it to you last time. I don't talk for other people. I don't know them(like you as well) and I am also saying that Grant was not even ingesting moderate amounts of vit A. So I said that I also think that he had probably other issues like zinc deficiency for example and he fixed this by eating more red meat.. But what I am trying say to you THAT I EXPERIENCED DETOX SYMPTOMS during the time when I first started with low vit A diet. Obviously you have no experience with taking accutane or ingesting high amounts of vit A. I know exactly how it feels. SO when I stop ingesting vit A and I start to feel like I am taking even more vit A than before or like I am on accutane again. That is the detox. So I don't know why you trying to tell me that I didn't experienced detox.. Do you understand? I agree that Dr.Smith is going crazy with his everyone is vit A toxic. Vit A is not even vitamin. Everyone should eat low vit A diet etc.. I don't agree with that but that doesn't mean that nobody can have chronic vit A toxicity and health issue from that...
Quote from
Kurtis on October 8, 2022, 3:45 am
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 3:40 am
@kurtis that is not the case. It is not like I had no idea about nutrition before starting with vit A detox.. In eyes of "nutritionist" my diet was very healthy full of micronutrients and balanced.. It's not like I was eating pound a liver a day or something. But I was eating all foods that are highest in vit A in small amounts every day for dacade.. Another thing is that the same diet for someone else could be perfectly fine. If that person doesn't have other health issue. Can have sun exposure daily etc.. So in fact I started to get sick because of "healthy diet" that is recommended by many nutritionists.. Before that I was on bodybuilding diet basically meat and rice and I was ok. The problem started when I started with stupid diets like keto, paleo, Ray Peat, Morley Robbins etc..
Grants grand hypothesis is that people are sick because they eat too much VA and that it's not a vitamin at all, this is false because many people who are sick try the very restrictive low VA diet and don't heal all their health problems, some people actually feel worse but people here want to say it's "detox". They may heal a little bit but you can't chalk that up to VA alone because of how many things are excluded on a low VA diet. I can't spell this out any simpler for you.
So I will say it to you last time. I don't talk for other people. I don't know them(like you as well) and I am also saying that Grant was not even ingesting moderate amounts of vit A. So I said that I also think that he had probably other issues like zinc deficiency for example and he fixed this by eating more red meat.. But what I am trying say to you THAT I EXPERIENCED DETOX SYMPTOMS during the time when I first started with low vit A diet. Obviously you have no experience with taking accutane or ingesting high amounts of vit A. I know exactly how it feels. SO when I stop ingesting vit A and I start to feel like I am taking even more vit A than before or like I am on accutane again. That is the detox. So I don't know why you trying to tell me that I didn't experienced detox.. Do you understand? I agree that Dr.Smith is going crazy with his everyone is vit A toxic. Vit A is not even vitamin. Everyone should eat low vit A diet etc.. I don't agree with that but that doesn't mean that nobody can have chronic vit A toxicity and health issue from that...
Jenny and Liz have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Orion on October 8, 2022, 7:44 am
@jaj Would you not get enough choline from beef? or do you think you assimilate it better from eggs? thanks
@jaj Would you not get enough choline from beef? or do you think you assimilate it better from eggs? thanks
Quote from
Jenny on October 8, 2022, 7:45 am
Don’t get riled Jiri. It’s not worth it. You are correct.
Don’t get riled Jiri. It’s not worth it. You are correct.
Quote from
Jenny on October 8, 2022, 7:48 am
@orion you have to eat a lot of beef to get enough choline whereas 3 eggs gives you the RDA for women, maybe 4 eggs for men. If you eat (and digest well) a lot of beef then I’m sure you are fine. It could be one of the reasons that carnivores don’t get ‘detox setback cycles’. But for me personally I think I was only getting half the choline RDA. I’m post menopausal. I have PEMT SNPs too so I probably need more choline than the RDA not less. I have low stomach acid so can’t manage large portions of meat. For me cutting out eggs was a total disaster. I think my terrible liver results in 2020 weren’t just showing that ‘detox was rough’ they were screaming out ‘choline deficiency’ doh 🙄
PS as always with my suggestions I’m not saying an issue for everyone. I’m just suggesting if you are a man or post menopausal women who has given up eggs but doesn’t eat/digest well large amounts of meat. Beware of choline deficiency. Younger women make more choline as oestrogen stimulates the PEMT gene (unless of course you carry damaging SNPs which are pretty common),
@orion you have to eat a lot of beef to get enough choline whereas 3 eggs gives you the RDA for women, maybe 4 eggs for men. If you eat (and digest well) a lot of beef then I’m sure you are fine. It could be one of the reasons that carnivores don’t get ‘detox setback cycles’. But for me personally I think I was only getting half the choline RDA. I’m post menopausal. I have PEMT SNPs too so I probably need more choline than the RDA not less. I have low stomach acid so can’t manage large portions of meat. For me cutting out eggs was a total disaster. I think my terrible liver results in 2020 weren’t just showing that ‘detox was rough’ they were screaming out ‘choline deficiency’ doh 🙄
PS as always with my suggestions I’m not saying an issue for everyone. I’m just suggesting if you are a man or post menopausal women who has given up eggs but doesn’t eat/digest well large amounts of meat. Beware of choline deficiency. Younger women make more choline as oestrogen stimulates the PEMT gene (unless of course you carry damaging SNPs which are pretty common),
Orion and kathy55wood have reacted to this post.
Quote from
Kurtis on October 8, 2022, 8:29 am
@jiri
I'm not saying you weren't toxic with VA, VA can be a toxin if you eat excessive amounts of it like everything else. But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. People with inflammatory diseases report this when they get better on certain protocols. They get smaller and smaller flare ups, all while consuming VA.
What I'm saying is the exact same thing health institutions say about VA forever which is that It's toxic at high amounts for too long. Grant hasn't discovered anything new here other than a severe elemination diet put his kidney disease into remission. People have healed eating similarly restrictive diets that have enough VA or even quite a lot of VA, fruitarians are one example of this. They restrict their diets to hypoallergenic fruits which are all quite high in VA and they can put their disease into remission. This has nothing to do with VA unless you have eaten excessive amounts all your life. And restricting VA for many years and expecting to heal is stupid and potentially dangerous. I haven't found a single study were animals deficient in VA do well versues controls.
It's just a vitamin you have to be aware of not to eat too much of for too long because it can build up. Eating a little under the RDA just to be safe is fine too. Nobody should be afraid of VA in normal amounts.
@jiri
I'm not saying you weren't toxic with VA, VA can be a toxin if you eat excessive amounts of it like everything else. But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. People with inflammatory diseases report this when they get better on certain protocols. They get smaller and smaller flare ups, all while consuming VA.
What I'm saying is the exact same thing health institutions say about VA forever which is that It's toxic at high amounts for too long. Grant hasn't discovered anything new here other than a severe elemination diet put his kidney disease into remission. People have healed eating similarly restrictive diets that have enough VA or even quite a lot of VA, fruitarians are one example of this. They restrict their diets to hypoallergenic fruits which are all quite high in VA and they can put their disease into remission. This has nothing to do with VA unless you have eaten excessive amounts all your life. And restricting VA for many years and expecting to heal is stupid and potentially dangerous. I haven't found a single study were animals deficient in VA do well versues controls.
It's just a vitamin you have to be aware of not to eat too much of for too long because it can build up. Eating a little under the RDA just to be safe is fine too. Nobody should be afraid of VA in normal amounts.
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 8:41 am
@kurtis "But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. "
I really don't know what to say anymore. I have no idea how it feels to be on accutane when I was taking accutane? And the detox symptoms WERE AXACTLY THE SAME AS DURING TAKING ACCUTANE???? When I have 9 from 10 symptoms of vit A toxicity I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT IS FROM DETOXING VIT A? Bro... 😀
@kurtis "But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. "
I really don't know what to say anymore. I have no idea how it feels to be on accutane when I was taking accutane? And the detox symptoms WERE AXACTLY THE SAME AS DURING TAKING ACCUTANE???? When I have 9 from 10 symptoms of vit A toxicity I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT IS FROM DETOXING VIT A? Bro... 😀
Armin has reacted to this post.
Quote from
Kurtis on October 8, 2022, 8:47 am
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 8:41 am
@kurtis "But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. "
I really don't know what to say anymore. I have no idea how it feels to be on accutane when I was taking accutane? And the detox symptoms WERE AXACTLY THE SAME AS DURING TAKING ACCUTANE???? When I have 9 from 10 symptoms of vit A toxicity I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT IS FROM DETOXING VIT A? Bro... 
You are really dumb man haha. When somebody feels bad on a low VA diet it isn't always 100% detox. Sure it MAY exist but telling people its for sure detox is really dumb and potentially dangerous. I dont see what's so difficult to understand about this.
Quote from
Jiří on October 8, 2022, 8:41 am
@kurtis "But you have no idea if the detox feeling you were experiencing has to do with VA, or simply cutting down on allergenic food and having your immune system recover in a way that isn't a straight line. "
I really don't know what to say anymore. I have no idea how it feels to be on accutane when I was taking accutane? And the detox symptoms WERE AXACTLY THE SAME AS DURING TAKING ACCUTANE???? When I have 9 from 10 symptoms of vit A toxicity I HAVE NO IDEA IF IT IS FROM DETOXING VIT A? Bro...
You are really dumb man haha. When somebody feels bad on a low VA diet it isn't always 100% detox. Sure it MAY exist but telling people its for sure detox is really dumb and potentially dangerous. I dont see what's so difficult to understand about this.
Quote from
Jenny on October 8, 2022, 8:51 am
@kurtis
‘It's just a vitamin you have to be aware of not to eat too much of for too long because it can build up. Eating a little under the RDA just to be safe is fine too. Nobody should be afraid of VA in normal amounts.’
I totally agree with you.
The main point as I see it is this:
People DON’T understand that it can build up. Even on my nutritional therapist course this wasn’t taught. Just that extraordinary high amounts were harmful. People are ingesting amounts well over RDA and don’t realise it’s an issue. Two friends recently both takin CLO and a multi and eating sweet potatoes multiple times a week. One a successful athlete was bright orange! This is not well known. The over ingestion is paired with poor detox which is very common in our toxic world which makes the accumulation more likely.
The big issue as I see it is therefore that EXCESS vA is common NOT rare and is a very under appreciated problem. People need to be aware of the very real dangers. If people have excess vA then reducing it will be helpful to health. I do not think we need to go very low vA or reduce it to zero. I think we want to get the level down and then get on with our lives, eating a nutrient dense diet and de-stressing. Keep vA intake no more than RDA (which in U.K. is only 2000IU/2333IU females/males) and support good detoxification and excretion. Should be fine then. Extended limited diets can have unintended consequences (see above).
@kurtis
‘It's just a vitamin you have to be aware of not to eat too much of for too long because it can build up. Eating a little under the RDA just to be safe is fine too. Nobody should be afraid of VA in normal amounts.’
I totally agree with you.
The main point as I see it is this:
People DON’T understand that it can build up. Even on my nutritional therapist course this wasn’t taught. Just that extraordinary high amounts were harmful. People are ingesting amounts well over RDA and don’t realise it’s an issue. Two friends recently both takin CLO and a multi and eating sweet potatoes multiple times a week. One a successful athlete was bright orange! This is not well known. The over ingestion is paired with poor detox which is very common in our toxic world which makes the accumulation more likely.
The big issue as I see it is therefore that EXCESS vA is common NOT rare and is a very under appreciated problem. People need to be aware of the very real dangers. If people have excess vA then reducing it will be helpful to health. I do not think we need to go very low vA or reduce it to zero. I think we want to get the level down and then get on with our lives, eating a nutrient dense diet and de-stressing. Keep vA intake no more than RDA (which in U.K. is only 2000IU/2333IU females/males) and support good detoxification and excretion. Should be fine then. Extended limited diets can have unintended consequences (see above).
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