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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itVitamin A and sleep study

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Vitamin A and sleep study

#1 · October 25, 2019, 11:42 am

Lately I have had a terrible problem falling asleep. I get really sleepy (usually reading a book in bed), then turn off the light, get comfortable and ...cannot fall asleep. It takes me 2 hours of trying; relaxation, meditating and then desperation and sometimes melatonin.

I have been on a vitamin A depleted diet for about 3 months. I feel well otherwise.

I came across this study https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/3fa0/4df40ec96e462fbf5736b3044aeead406b7e.pdf

that seems to point to the importance of vitamin A in sleep. I am lost. If you are willing to read through this study and see of there is something to it, I will be forever grateful. Thank you in advance.

#2 · October 26, 2019, 3:24 am

Quote from hillcountry on October 26, 2019, 3:24 am
Hi Beata - my sleep patterns have been affected by going low-A, but they fluctuate. Maybe it's related to detox more than anything. I'm convinced that insomnia is VA toxicity, so imo my bouts of getting a couple hours of sleep and then being wide-awake, which is how it goes for me, probably correlates with how much detox activity is happening.

I read the study and the only relevant part I saw was that they kind of shoot themselves in the foot on page 6. It's like they started with a pre-conceived plan (of course they did, it's a designed study), and after recapitulating the basic dogma for a page or two, they get to the delta-sleep part, and even after their admission on page 6, they stick with the original destination planned as a conclusion, and then just a moment later, they sort of obfuscate and pin-the-tail on Transthyretin.

I could just have the wrong pair of sunglasses on this morning, but I don't think they actually proved anything there. I used to read White Papers published by the Bank for International Settlements and I'd print them out and then highlight all the wishy-washy words like "may", "considered", "probably" and such, and it gave a super-graphic kind of overview of how they weren't actually saying anything definitive about anything they were supposedly reporting on. The subject matter was Clearing Derivative Contracts, but I see a lot of the same vague blather in so many of the papers published on PubMed. It's a breath of fresh air to read a paper by someone like Anthony Mawson, where the "vague" is minimum and the "insight" is maximum. Just like reading Grant.

Maybe they're right about VAD causing the attenuation of the delta oscillation, but I question what they actually mean by that "deficiency" designation. And they even added a caveat on page 6 that just sets-off my logic-alarm >> "In fact, although the level of plasma retinol was significantly decreased in our VAD mice, the difference was not so large". I know English is a second-language for these guys but that doesn't account for the "mushiness" of that sentence. And they precede that one with >> "It has been reported that significant deprivation of Vitamin A is very difficult to induce in mice, because mice pups are born with sufficient Vitamin A stores to last till [sic] their entire lives". So, maybe they overcame that difficulty (or not), but if this is the case for mice, wouldn't it be logical to ask why it is not also the case for humans? If we need VA at all, maybe we have enough of it right from the git-go.

I doubt that many of us on the zero-to-low A diets are anywhere close to being VAD, however one might quantify that, and even given that there is (or can be) such a thing in the first place. It would be interesting to find out whether World War Two POWS got a good night's sleep on a regular basis. I'll bet they did.

Hi Beata - my sleep patterns have been affected by going low-A, but they fluctuate. Maybe it's related to detox more than anything. I'm convinced that insomnia is VA toxicity, so imo my bouts of getting a couple hours of sleep and then being wide-awake, which is how it goes for me, probably correlates with how much detox activity is happening.

I read the study and the only relevant part I saw was that they kind of shoot themselves in the foot on page 6. It's like they started with a pre-conceived plan (of course they did, it's a designed study), and after recapitulating the basic dogma for a page or two, they get to the delta-sleep part, and even after their admission on page 6, they stick with the original destination planned as a conclusion, and then just a moment later, they sort of obfuscate and pin-the-tail on Transthyretin.

I could just have the wrong pair of sunglasses on this morning, but I don't think they actually proved anything there. I used to read White Papers published by the Bank for International Settlements and I'd print them out and then highlight all the wishy-washy words like "may", "considered", "probably" and such, and it gave a super-graphic kind of overview of how they weren't actually saying anything definitive about anything they were supposedly reporting on. The subject matter was Clearing Derivative Contracts, but I see a lot of the same vague blather in so many of the papers published on PubMed. It's a breath of fresh air to read a paper by someone like Anthony Mawson, where the "vague" is minimum and the "insight" is maximum. Just like reading Grant.

Maybe they're right about VAD causing the attenuation of the delta oscillation, but I question what they actually mean by that "deficiency" designation. And they even added a caveat on page 6 that just sets-off my logic-alarm >> "In fact, although the level of plasma retinol was significantly decreased in our VAD mice, the difference was not so large". I know English is a second-language for these guys but that doesn't account for the "mushiness" of that sentence. And they precede that one with >> "It has been reported that significant deprivation of Vitamin A is very difficult to induce in mice, because mice pups are born with sufficient Vitamin A stores to last till [sic] their entire lives". So, maybe they overcame that difficulty (or not), but if this is the case for mice, wouldn't it be logical to ask why it is not also the case for humans? If we need VA at all, maybe we have enough of it right from the git-go.

I doubt that many of us on the zero-to-low A diets are anywhere close to being VAD, however one might quantify that, and even given that there is (or can be) such a thing in the first place. It would be interesting to find out whether World War Two POWS got a good night's sleep on a regular basis. I'll bet they did.

romaine, puddleduck and Beata have reacted to this post.

#3 · October 26, 2019, 5:28 am

@hillcountry, thank you for taking time to look at this study. The sentence you quoted about the “unlarge” difference was what caught my attention. (And not because of the use of the word. English is not my mother tongue either). I also thought that this study was unclear and did not really prove anything.

In the meantime I am still struggling with my sleep. Once I fall asleep (with great difficulty), I seem to be sleeping while awake! I know that I sleep because I even have a dream here and there yet it feels like I am not sleeping. Also, I can wake up somewhere at around 5 am and feel rested! I manage to fall asleep and wake up tired at my regular time.

Strangely, I don't have many other detox symptoms. Generally speaking my energy and mood are good, I don't catch colds and feel well. The good news is that I had to cut down on my thyroid drugs as I was becoming too hyper.

Banking, global economy and vagueness are like 2 peas in the pod! I think that one has to have a second brain to understand it all. It only makes sense to me when Yanis Variufakis talks. But this is a rare treat.

puddleduck has reacted to this post.

#4 · October 26, 2019, 8:27 am

I'm sorry I don't have time to read what has been posted and I will have to come back later.

I wanted to say that I'm a "Princess and the Pea" and I wonder if Princesses had too much vitamin A and could not get comfy at night to sleep.

Anything you can do in advance to make yourself comfy should be done. Hot shower. Feather mattress pad. Peelable layers... etc etc

It's not that I'm bad at sleeping, it's that I'm bad at getting COMFY.

#5 · November 13, 2019, 10:19 pm

Have not slept for more than a few hours each night this whole past week. Really affecting my mood and cognition. Will speak to the doc today and get some pills to knock me out

#6 · November 14, 2019, 9:40 am

Aw, Keero that is awful! Several people here have found they got some relief from changing up their sleeping posture. Some really like the slanted sleeping. And then Tim mentioned not using a pillow. I wonder what it is about these changes that help? I have been trying to sleep with less pillow, and it is helping me. I can't seem to go to no pillow.

What are you experiencing?

#7 · November 14, 2019, 3:57 pm

Quote from Keero on November 13, 2019, 10:19 pm

Have not slept for more than a few hours each night this whole past week. Really affecting my mood and cognition. Will speak to the doc today and get some pills to knock me out

Sorry to hear this. Not getting enough sleep is terrible. I found that an occasional Melatonin 3 mg helps. I don’t take it every night only when I am really struggling.

i would worry about any sleeping pills, though. Tried once and slept but did not feel rested.

#8 · November 15, 2019, 4:27 am

Took 10mg ambien and slept amazing. Just needed one good night sleep and now I've got it. I feel like this is part of a detox cycle, other symptoms are coming back.

#9 · November 21, 2019, 8:22 am

I have posted in my log about my successful pillow change up:

https://ggenereux.blog/discussion/topic/lil-chicks-log/?part=10#postid-6062

#10 · November 21, 2019, 6:57 pm

I dont always sleep as well as i could if I haven't done my daily calisthenics: push ups, pull ups, chin ups and various other exercises. Doing sprints or even better boxing would be a good idea imo to fight insomnia.

When I first went low va I couldn't wait to get to bed, i would go to bed at 9 pm some days and sleep for 11 hours. I had extreme fatigue of body and mind but was relaxed at the same time. I also had vivid dreams. So I assumed that va causes sleepiness?

Vitamin A and sleep study

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