I needed to disable self sign-ups because I’ve been getting too many spam-type accounts. Thanks.
Vitamin E causes Vitamin A dumping?
I started taking Vitamin E supplements the other day (268 mg alpha tocopherol from sunflower seeds), and had a very clear amplification of symptoms I've been getting off and on during the night while I've been on a low VA diet - a strange sensation in my sinuses and face, a generalized flushing feeling, depressed respiratory rate, and aching muscles and joints. After three days of supplementing, I've now got a headache as well. It seems highly likely these symptoms are a result of suddenly elevated levels of Vitamin A in the blood.
I went back and read Garrett Smith's bit on Vitamin E and noticed that there were comments posted where people seemed to be having symptoms of Vitamin A dumping from eating foods higher in Vitamin E. Similarly, I had started to get these dumping sensations on a smaller scale since reintroducing wild berries that I expect to have a decent amount of Vitamin E.
My reason for supplementing is that I recently got Spectracell MNT results that indicated a Vitamin E deficiency, and I'm still trying to figure out why my gums suddenly started going to hell several months ago. Now that I've made the clear connection between some of my nightly symptoms and Vitamin E, I'm starting to wonder if I became depleted after starting to eat salmon regularly. I catch my own wild salmon every year and do my best to keep it cold and prevent oxidation in the packaging and storage process, but inevitably there gets to be freezer burn on a lot of the fillets after over 6 months in storage. It looks like fish oil supplements have been associated with Vitamin E depletion, and I would guess that oxidation of the salmon fillets I'm eating would lead to the same problem over time if consumed in large enough amounts. Of course, it's also possible that Vitamin A itself is causing Vitamin E depletion, and there's a bit of Vitamin A in the sockeye salmon, although not terribly much.
Has anyone else with gum problems considered Vitamin E deficiency as a potential cause? @sarabeth-matilsky @beata-2
It sounds like Vitamin A and Vitamin E have some commonalities in their metabolic pathways, which sparked an idea...is there any chance that the body tries to use Vitamin A in place of Vitamin E when you're deficient in Vitamin E? Is it possible that when you finally get more Vitamin E in your diet, the Vitamin E "kicks out" Vitamin A from where it doesn't really belong, akin to how the body seems to insert metals with similar chemical properties into places they shouldn't be when you're deficient in the minerals you actually need (e.g. when fluoride or bromide occupies a place where iodide is supposed to be, and then gets kicked out and replaced by iodide when you begin iodide repletion).
Along the same lines, if the body is low in the antioxidants that it prefers, like glutathione, does it start using its second most preferred antioxidant, and then third, fourth, fifth as they become depleted? If glutathione is depleted, maybe Vitamin C and Vitamin E get used instead until they are all gone, and then it moves on to using Vitamin A?
As an aside, I remember having the same kind of Vitamin A toxicity symptoms I get from Vitamin E supplements when I last had a severe cold or flu. My opinion is that viral infections don't suddenly lead to cholestasis like Garrett Smith thinks, but rather that the body is just trying to eradicate an infection by intentionally raising Vitamin A levels in circulation. And maybe it would rather use something like Vitamin C if it had it available, but Vitamin A gets used instead when there is insufficient Vitamin C for the purpose? It would be very interesting to see whether someone with Vitamin A toxicity could prevent symptoms of Vitamin A toxicity when they got a viral illness by supplementing with large amounts of Vitamin C...
(I could be wrong, but it feels like Garrett Smith attributes just about all Vitamin A and bile acid problems to cholestasis without addressing the basic fact that cholestasis should also lead to jaundice and other identifiable symptoms that seem not to be present in most people complaining of Vitamin A toxicity. AFAIK cholestasis is a narrowly defined medical condition, and Garrett Smith seems like he's inappropriately co-opted the term to refer to just about any symptom related to Vitamin A toxicity. No doubt, some people out there do have both cholestasis and Vitamin A toxicity, but the conditions don't seem to be inextricably linked by any means.)
How to reply to this?! It really depends what system of thoughts we ascribe to...
'Dr. Jekyl is trying to prove that sodium chloride causes death. He takes a fellow on a boat into the sea and submerges his head under the wave only to pull the corpse out. The cause of death? Sodium chloride in sea water...' (from Dr. Tom Cowan podcast)
I think when trying to figure out the cause of disease, it is easy to create believable but imaginary patterns that support the claim. Dr. Smith seems to be the master of this as many of us are as well. In the end we know sh*&%t about the human body and are afraid to look at the real causes of illness. A viral disease is the best example as no one ever isolated a virus and infected another organism with it. So the whole viral theory is akin to a unicorn.
What if what we consider as symptoms that we try to stop with eg. supplements, are simply the body's attempts at getting rid of something. What if the supplements stop the symptoms and push the offenders deeper into the tissues, causing other problems later on? What if we allow for the symptoms to simply run their course?
My own blood blisters in my mouth are a good example. Large doses of vitamin C seems to help but what if this just prolongs the issue? My fear is that if a blood blister forms on the inside of the cheek, what if it will form on the brain?? Fact of fear??
The question to ask is: what causes us to be unwell - and then remove it. When I try to think about the possible offenders, I feel unable to change them, so I go back to the food and supplements manipulations because it is easy. Otherwise, I would have to totally restructure my life, move away from a 5G tower, move closer to nature, away from my partner's 150 electronic devices, closer to my children, friends, etc. I feel unable to this, so I split my food and supplements into particles and try to reshuffle them into pretty patterns that keep me busy from thinking about the real issues.
Sorry, went sideways with this - but wrote from the heart 🙂
I wonder if the blood blisters are caused by retinoic acid and the vitamin C is slowing ALDH and preventing RA formation. However, you then get aldehyde accumulation. How are you with alcohol? Can you tolerate?
It may be better to support retinoic acid removal rather than block its formation, if this is the issue. Then you’d be getting rid of vA rather than just re circulating it.
Sorry to hear you are feeling low.
@jaj, I have been musing about this for some time now and I must concur. It is time to bite the bullet and let the blisters form - and hopefully go away. But I am a bit scared…
What do you think are the best measures to support this process?
I have always been a half-a-glass drank but for a few years now and have a negative psycho-somatic response to alcohol (or a high intuitive inclination). My stomach churns at the thought of it. So, during the family gatherings I have water in my glass - and the looks I get! Precious!
I am feeling better today, but thank you nevertheless.❤️ It just has been such a whirlwind in the last month. Hopefully thighs are settling now.
@beata and @jaj I think you are on to something. In the "olden days" before they were included in childhood vaccinations, we kids all got measles, mumps, and chicken pox -- uncomfortable and inconvenient at the time, but after we recovered, we were even better than before (due to the VA dump). I understand that we are trying to continue to heal, albeit at a fairly comfortable rate -- thus the use of ascorbic acid, for example.
At present, I'm reading books about basically healing the impossible. The concept overall is that there is more to healing than getting all the supplements and diet correct. "Change your mind, heal your body" is the book I'm reading ATM --the author's brain tumor resolved without surgery or any medical intervention. I read this type of book to gather hopefulness and peace about things that are not yet changing. Just a word of encouragement!
I think you are totally right Kathy.
Beata I would ween very slowly off the vC if I were you as I wouldn’t want to open the floodgates. I wonder why you are getting a retinoic acid build up (if that’s what it is). I’m sure you’ve thought about that! Maybe look at supporting glucoronidation? Would taurine help perhaps? Or binders?
@kathy55wood, childhood vaccines are the biggest criminal aspect of pharma ever implemented. It is a way to secure the clients for life - and what could be more profitable! And, the mind, emotions, love, socialising, laughter- this is health for free and how difficult it seems to access it lately!
@christian, when we cannot control what is happening around us, we start controlling that which we can, usually our food - and we all know the results.
@jaj, Jenny, I have tried to do that several times and got too spooked when the blisters formed. But maybe the trick is to overcome this fear and push through. I followed Doris Loh for a while and her praises of the very high doses of ascorbic acid (because of the EMF’s, stress, modern living, etc). But perhaps believing is more powerful that reality which I seem to try to avoid. Will give it a try…again.
@christian yes, food is definitely a huge part of our sense of security and safety in the world. We have to be able to trust it to help us grow and heal. But I am searching out other aspects of security and safety, as you say, in the emotional/spiritual realm. And I am learning (or should I say, teaching myself!) to take new perspectives on other decisions and actions in my life.
That is a very fascinating idea about Vitamin E! I was literally just logging in to note the following: "Ate some smoked salmon yesterday. Felt unwell after, cloudy and heavy and headachy, and developed a mouth ulcer before dinner." Only after I read your note did I remember that the last time my gums got super bad, around New Years, we were visiting my family (the only place we have access to wild alaskan smoked salmon, and I had eaten it every day for a week, not just once).
I also agree that overall mindset is super important, and yet I have had so little luck with meditation, counseling, etc. for all of my kids' and my issues. When the acute behavioral stuff became finally-for-the-first-time manageable after going low Vitamin A, it was also the first time when so-called "personal growth" for them became possible. I tend to think about the diet and nutrition being appropriate for bottom-level, root-cause "medicine", and then all the Other Good Stuff being equally important once the immediate drama and chaos has settled to lower noise level. For some of us this means avoiding or focusing on certain foods while also avoiding mold, and getting together with friends, and/or trying to meet new friends in this crazy world...
Meanwhile, I try to keep up because I don't often find any root-cause-resolution action steps that are as helpful as Low A has been. I worry that we are developing further deficiencies and overloads on this fairly limited rice-n-beans-n-meat diet, but am loathe to stop because this is as stable as we've ever been. But I'd like to stop with the horrible gum recession, and I'd love to have certain Urinary issues clear up, etc. etc. etc.
Sure wish it was easy! But it's better than the alternative, of being back where we were 2.5 years ago!!
Anyway, long way of saying that I can't seem to think of anything to do about the existing symptoms. Currently trying low dose vitamin C, lactoferrin, vitamin K, and whey protein powder (high quality). Trying not to supplement individual minerals, but to somehow affect metabolism of same...