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Vitamin K2
Hello,
To make it very short: I'm studying and testing health topics for roughly a decade with a very open mind (I tested almost everything). I have read Genereux' books and started the "poison A detox".
My question for those who have studied the subject is: what if the problem was not the A in itself but a deficiency of K2? K2 activates the proteins made by A and D (and maybe E) so a deficiency of K2 would make both A and D toxic as they need to be in balance. To be clear, K2 is not K1 or "K" which is for blood clotting etc but the liposoluble "activator" necessary for calcium metabolism etc.
It is not normal that after so long on a A deficient diet Grant had a strong reaction by taking lutein so there must be something else going on here... and K2 deficiency could be the "key". Why would some be deficient and not other people? Because we ate too much of A and D as foods and supplements. So I wonder what happens if AFTER detoxing the A for a few months one would highly increase his K2 content? Would then still be reactions to the A? Has anybody thought about yhis and tested it? K2 is quite rare compared to the A so foods high in K2 are rare...
Best,
Dino
I know Dr. Smith used to put his clients on K2 (I used to be one of his clients and took K2), not sure if he still does but I'm guessing he does. Maybe you can ask him on his facebook page about it. Sorry to not be of more help and I don't have any advice because health wise I'm a mess (not blaming the k2).
Some more info on the topic:
https://nutritionrestored.com/blog-forum/topic/poison-vitamin-a-depletes-vitamin-k/
I took all the fat solubles (A,D,E,K) for years and can say it did nothing special for me and I think the A&D were unnecessary and most likely harmful. I still use K2 periodically when I’m needing to take aspirin a lot but honestly I’m even questioning whether to continuing doing that. I just read something this morning on balancing the fat solubles, minerals, other nutrients and so forth but my personal opinion and experience is that it should not be that complicated and is irrelevant when you are no longer being poisoned. Bella
This is very interesting. However some of the highest vitamin a foods are k2 foods such as liver and egg yolks, cheese yet those still give people major problems. So maybe they are extremely deficient. I thought k2 was made by the bacteria in the gut as well? Maybe I’m wrong.
Quote from Guest on January 31, 2019, 7:42 amThis is very interesting. However some of the highest vitamin a foods are k2 foods such as liver and egg yolks, cheese yet those still give people major problems. So maybe they are extremely deficient. I thought k2 was made by the bacteria in the gut as well? Maybe I’m wrong.
Bacteria do make it, some people think that sometimes it isn't enough though. Maybe our modern lifestyles have killed off those bacteria populations? Seems like a very complicated issue like most things about nutrients.
Hello,
Thank's for the answers.
Bella: The point here is that if you have excess A and D compared to K2, then taking A, D and K2 will not solve the problem. Only by avoiding (depleting) the body of A and D while increasing K2 can we solve the problem. So the fact you took all the fat solubles doesn't contradict the fact that maybe K2 is the key. Also, I am not sure whether you are speaking of the same vitamin. From what I know, K2 has nothing to do with clotting (this is K1) and serves simply as an activator of specific enzymes created by A and D among others. Without K2 you cannot put calcium into your bones and it will accumulate in different tissues, causing all kinds of nasty symptoms, basically. K1 is easily found in foods, K2 is not. You can deplete K2 quite easily, while K1 would be rather difficult to do so. Basically, having an overload of A while depleting K2 is quite easy "to do" (just take some accutane you know...).
Concerning bacteria, yes, they make the K2, especially the escherischia group but in our modern toxic world very few "western" people have good guts so maybe we simply don't produce the K2 in sufficient quantities, maybe we just deplete it with too much A.
Basically, I have eaten tons of A during my whole life yet I am very lean and healthy. Some members of my family have eaten way less than me and have health issues (that's why I have done all the research etc. for years).
I do believe the A is a masterpiece in the equation, with pH, breath and calcium metabolism but am wondering whether all this is hiding a K2 deficiency.
If you eat only beef for long time, you will have basically almost no A and a little K2, which can explain the clearing of symptoms. Yet, if you eat A again, symptoms return. Why? Why don't I get symptoms from eating tons of A? If it is because my liver is not full, then why Grant who emptied his liver of A still gets symptoms after eating A? The A should be stored in his liver without any problem whatsoever. So something here is missing. What, I don't know yet but when I put everything together I suspect very strongly a K2 depletion to be the real cause behind the A toxicity and so on. Maybe I am wrong, maybe not. The only way to know would be that someone who has sufficiently emptied his liver from A try foods like sauerkraut (fermented at home, basically home made and unpasteurized) since it has some K2 and virtually no A. Supplemental Mk-4 (animal k2 form) would be another option but probably specific fermented foods are way better (the best would be I guess fermenting wheat and drinking the water, which, by the way, I love to do on regular basis since I am child; don't know the name of the dish but is is delicious). Then, after say 1-2 months on increasing K2, it would be great to try eating an A-rich food again and see whether symptoms come back or not. If not, then clearly the K2 was key since the symptoms apparently come back each time people eat A-rich foods.
Sorry english is not my language I am writing from Switzerland so hope you understand what I mean with all this.
In summary, depleting A clears symptoms but apparently do not "cure" completely the person experiencing the problems since one has to continue to avoid A or suffer again. So for me this shows that there is something else missing because many people including me do not experience anything with A. So to test this, people with health problems should deplete their liver from A for let's say 6-7-8 months while increasing the K2 consumption then try to reintroduce A and see what happens.
A good book on the subject would be: Vitamin K2 and the Calcium Paradox
By the way, butter may help because of the fats. OR butter may help because it is a good source of K2 (one of the only sources of K2 by the way). So it makes me wonder...
I am not a good option for the test since I have no symptom to begin with. I eat only rice and beef since more than a month now but basically I have no change on me (I still sleep very well, have lots of energy, am lean, think clearly, etc.). Other people I know started the diet and the changes are huge in just a few days. So I have something they don't (or I don't have something they do). What? Maybe the K2. So if someone here who has done the diet for at least 6 months would try increasing his K2 then adding back A to see what happens, it would be very interesting and I would be very grateful. Of course, there is a risk with it that symptoms come back. Again, I don't know whether it is K2 or not that's why I need people's help to "test it".
Very important: we are speaking here of K2 (Mk-4 or eventually Mk-7), not K1 or K (nothing to do with bloodclotting etc.). The K2 you will find only in specific fermented foods and butter. You can find it elsewhere but in very very minimal quantities.
I hope you understand that I don't want to go against the "A" since I have adopted it myself and do believe it can save lives. I simply want to get the "whole" picture and find the real deal, the definitive cure that make people free again, not by avoiding anything forever but understanding the full picture then choosing accordingly.
Thanks for reading and sorry for the messy text, I don't know how to be clear in english so there is no confusion because of words.
Best Regards,
Dino
Just to add to the previous message: yes you find K2 in foods like eggs and liver but I meant K2 without A is hard to find.
Also, having traveled a lot, I have seen many tribes eating quite a lot of livers (consuming whole fishes all day long every day). Indeed, liver is their very preferred food. So there is something else here. Of course, they don't get accutane vaccines etc. What I want to point here is that they don't get autoimmune problems etc. yet eat a lot of A. Some organs which they eat and we don't contain quite a lot of A. By the way, during my childhood, my parents loaded me with liver, butter and sardines among other foods which they derived basically from a "Weston Price" type diet yet I have never suffered any problem. But I always ate/drank quite a lot of fermented foods and drinks typical from the region I come (Balkan region) with the fermented wheat water a staple in my drinks. So, all in all, depleting the A is a very important part of the equation for people suffering from it, then something else must be done. K2?
This is truly fascinating! I take Thorne K2 drops on my skin when I remember. Maybe I should start them again. But more importantly maybe I should get some real sauerkraut and try that.
Very intersting
Ghee has 2-3 times more k2 than butter and no casein. Might be the best option. I really do believe in aryvedic one of oldest medicines those indians must be on to something.
As far as westen a price and tribes eating liver. I call bullshit on that. Even if they wanted to, the cow only has one liver to share unlike muscle meat. Coming in from a 3rd world country and traditional diet I can tell you liver is seldom eaten.. Maybe few times a year and definetly isn't desirable.
The Eskimos gave organ meats to the dogs. This is according to Stephensons who actually lived with them.
Balkans eat lots of meat and dairy but it's non fortified with VA palmytate.