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what is the ideal bread

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Bread has been called the staff of life, and has changed quite a bit in modern times.  It could be part of the issue, in that probably before it was much higher in b-vitamins and minerals.

Perhaps we should look at bread making from a scientific point of view.

If we are going to eat it, shouldn't it be ideal?

 

I find the following article a bit suprising in that I assumed that the WAPF was right about sourdough having the best effect on b-vitamin content.  However, it instead seems to say that long slow yeast fermentation is actually better.   Of course this is the case, I've just finally managed to come up with a sourdough culture!.  However, I'm not really happy with the sour flavor I'm getting from things like crepes.  I think I'd actually prefer a yeasty flavor.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0733521005000457?via%3Dihub

"Whole wheat bread represents an important source of dietary fibre and micronutrients such as minerals and vitamins (B1, B2, B6). Thus it is important to control losses of vitamins during milling and breadmaking. The classical (yeast) breadmaking process is a relatively severe, leading to a 48% loss of thiamine in white bread. Longer fermentation times (white bread) led to higher thiamine concentrations (2.5 μg/g) than shorter fermentations (1.4 μg/g). In whole wheat bread, separate yeast or sourdough fermentations maintained vitamin B1 levels close to that of the original flour (5.5 μg/g). Whole wheat breadmaking with yeast (from kneading to final bread), in long fermentations, resulted in a 30% enrichment in riboflavin. The pyridoxine concentration of whole wheat flour is 5-fold higher than white flour, but classical fermentations resulted in a severe depletion in pyridoxine (−47%). The use of mixed fermentation conditions (yeast plus sourdough) had no synergistic impact on B vitamin levels. The classical breadmaking protocol is time-saving but does not result in maximal vitamin retention. Highest levels of B vitamins were achieved by long yeast fermentations."

Даниил has reacted to this post.
Даниил

Quick breads like muffins and pancakes are convenient, but I've heard people say here to avoid bicarbonate because it interferes with some b vitamins.  I don't have any scientific proof of that, however. 

Whole grain has plenty of carotenoids. Use white wheat. If you're worried about the b-vitamins you can add them yourself, you can buy single vitamins in bulk without any additives or binders on some websites like purebulk. Enriched flour from the store is dangerous because they add plenty of toxic iron to it. If you have problems with gluten (and you don't have celiac disease) you can rise the dough for 12-24 hours in room temperature and most of the gluten will get broken down by the yeast. Longer rising times = more gluten gets broken down. You can do this with both regular commercial yeast and with sourdough.

lil chick has reacted to this post.
lil chick
Quote from salt on September 9, 2020, 5:49 am

Whole grain has plenty of carotenoids. Use white wheat. If you're worried about the b-vitamins you can add them yourself, you can buy single vitamins in bulk without any additives or binders on some websites like purebulk. Enriched flour from the store is dangerous because they add plenty of toxic iron to it. If you have problems with gluten (and you don't have celiac disease) you can rise the dough for 12-24 hours in room temperature and most of the gluten will get broken down by the yeast. Longer rising times = more gluten gets broken down. You can do this with both regular commercial yeast and with sourdough.

whole grains don't have a lot of carotenoids. i'd rather take in miniscule amounts of carotenoids with whole grain vs white wheat. carotenoids in whole grains are a drop in the bucket compared to most other foods. i'd rather get my b vitamins from foods. if you put it into context, some of us were eating greens, carrots, sweet potatoes, mangoes, chili peppers, and all kinds of carotenoids. these have WAY more carotenoids than any whole grain.

that being said, since i already eat a lot of beans/whole grains, for bread, i just choose whatever i want and use the sourdough process.

tim, lil chick and 3 other users have reacted to this post.
timlil chickDavidRetinoiconДаниил

@salt I found a bread in the grocery store, do you mind commenting on its safety? Its ingredients are:

wheat starch ,water ,dextrose ,rapeseed oil, salt, grinded psyllium husk seeds, yeast , sugar , emulsifier E412.

Thanks 🙂

Quote from Arena on June 4, 2021, 3:44 am

@salt I found a bread in the grocery store, do you mind commenting on its safety? Its ingredients are:

wheat starch ,water ,dextrose ,rapeseed oil, salt, grinded psyllium husk seeds, yeast , sugar , emulsifier E412.

Thanks 🙂

Rapeseed oil has quite a lot of carotenoids but according to a study I just looked at the processed refined oil had no detectable levels of carotenoids so it should probably be fine unless it's some kinda fancy bread boasting about using coldpressed oils. 

Regarding the psyllium husk I don't really know enough about it to comment. There seems to be different types of psyllium, both dehulled and whole, I suspect the whole husks do have some carotenoids. When I did a google search on it there seems to a whiter kind of psyllium nad a darker browner kind, it's probably carotenoids making it brown. According to this paper   there was no carotenoids identified in the blond psyllium https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4821064/ "Anthocyanidins and carotenoids, including cyanidin (m/z 816.19), malvidin (m/z 817.23) and rhodopin/OH-lycopene (m/z 555.45), were only identified in the leaf extract"

How are you doing anyways, did you notice any differences while eating extremely little VA?

 

 

I forgot to thank you for your thorough response here, @salt, anyway, I really appreciate being able to ask you about stuff like this. As far as I know you are the authority here on what contains carotenoids or not, so thank you!
I'll post an update very soon, just waiting for some serum retinol tests to come back 🙂

Orion and salt have reacted to this post.
Orionsalt
Quote from salt on September 9, 2020, 5:49 am

Whole grain has plenty of carotenoids. Use white wheat. If you're worried about the b-vitamins you can add them yourself, you can buy single vitamins in bulk without any additives or binders on some websites like purebulk. Enriched flour from the store is dangerous because they add plenty of toxic iron to it. If you have problems with gluten (and you don't have celiac disease) you can rise the dough for 12-24 hours in room temperature and most of the gluten will get broken down by the yeast. Longer rising times = more gluten gets broken down. You can do this with both regular commercial yeast and with sourdough.

BTW, my friend says that they can put titanium dioxide in white flour for bleaching.

Quote from lil chick on September 9, 2020, 5:03 am

I find the following article a bit suprising in that I assumed that the WAPF was right about sourdough having the best effect on b-vitamin content.  However, it instead seems to say that long slow yeast fermentation is actually better.   Of course this is the case, I've just finally managed to come up with a sourdough culture!.  However, I'm not really happy with the sour flavor I'm getting from things like crepes.  I think I'd actually prefer a yeasty flavor.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0733521005000457?via%3Dihub

"Whole wheat bread represents an important source of dietary fibre and micronutrients such as minerals and vitamins (B1, B2, B6). Thus it is important to control losses of vitamins during milling and breadmaking. The classical (yeast) breadmaking process is a relatively severe, leading to a 48% loss of thiamine in white bread. Longer fermentation times (white bread) led to higher thiamine concentrations (2.5 μg/g) than shorter fermentations (1.4 μg/g). In whole wheat bread, separate yeast or sourdough fermentations maintained vitamin B1 levels close to that of the original flour (5.5 μg/g). Whole wheat breadmaking with yeast (from kneading to final bread), in long fermentations, resulted in a 30% enrichment in riboflavin. The pyridoxine concentration of whole wheat flour is 5-fold higher than white flour, but classical fermentations resulted in a severe depletion in pyridoxine (−47%). The use of mixed fermentation conditions (yeast plus sourdough) had no synergistic impact on B vitamin levels. The classical breadmaking protocol is time-saving but does not result in maximal vitamin retention. Highest levels of B vitamins were achieved by long yeast fermentations."

Wow, for me, sourdough wins in all respects, because I still (try) to avoid B6. Thank you very much for the information

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