Quote from Retinoicon on October 31, 2021, 6:37 am

There were a few comments on the vitamin A content of meat upthread that I wanted to respond to. I won't refer to specific posts.

1. Grass-finished muscle meat has a very high retinol content, according to a Chinese study where cows were transitioned from grass to grains (with vitamin A supplements even in the control group) and the retinol content went down over a three month period and also an Egyptian/Japanese study comparing grain and grass-finished meat from Egypt. 
2. I have been testing grass and grain finished beef over the last few months and I do better on grain-finished beef. I gain body fat on grass-finished beef. I sleep better and urinate less on grain-finished beef. My cracked heels are much less painful on grain-finished beef. 
3. There was a debate upthread about beta carotene in beef. Beef is an animal food and the levels of retinol are much higher than the levels of beta carotene from beef, which therefore should be irrelevant in the big picture of vitamin A intake. 
4. Could not honey contain related retinoid compounds that do not convert into vitamin A but might have similar detox issues?
5. On Paul Saladino specifically, he was on a paleo diet with liver before going full carnivore and eliminating his eczema symptoms, so it was the removal of plants (vegetables, given that he eats fruit now) that was associated with his improvements. He does come across as honest when discussing his say romantic issues (he is middle aged and still single) so I don't see why he would be lying about his daily fresh liver consumption in addition to his supplements that contain desiccated liver powder. 

Quote from tim on October 31, 2021, 6:56 am

@ggenereux2014

Accutane disturbs enzyme function in the eye inhibiting the production of retinaldehyde, that is why it can cause dry eyes in a similar way that VAD does.

It would have been more accurate for me to write "a combination of dry eyes and night blindness" but regardless 16.4 million is 5% of the US population and Hypervitaminosis A is probably much more common than that.

Even in people taking Accutane, night vision being affected is uncommon. It will likely be far more uncommon in those with Hypervitaminosis A that have never taken Accutane because taking Accutane releases far more retinoic acid into the body at once than in Hypervitaminosis A. But Grant, why are we talking about retinoic acid toxicity when you are one of the least likely people in the world to be experiencing it? There is no way you can attribute these symptoms to vitamin A toxicity for yourself.

It’s a similar situation with xeropthalmia.  About 200,000 new cases are diagnosed each year in the USA.

You mean dry eyes? I know that's the literal meaning but that's not xerophthalmia, xerophthalmia is very rare in the USA and is the term specifically applicable to the degenerative effects on the retina of VAD of which dry eyes is only one of the first symptoms.

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 9:48 am

Hi @tim-2,

RE: Accutane disturbs enzyme function in the eye inhibiting the production of retinaldehyde, that is why it can cause dry eyes in a similar way that VAD does.

I think we’ve had this conversation before; but, no, not according to the study referenced below.

It looks like Accutane taken orally directly destroys the meibomian glands and ocular surface. The authors show (measure) in this study that retinoic acid is spreading over the ocular surface and causing damage to it.  That’s no surprise because just as with the epithelium of the skin, RA destroys the stem cells of the epithelium of the ocular surfaces. It drives stem cells into rapid mitosis, and that will obviously result in a thickening and stiffening of the tissue.

    The presence of isotretinoin in the tear film was believed to exacerbate ocular surface disease by further increasing tear osmolarity.

    Although isotretinoin’s detrimental effects on the meibomian glands and tear film are well established, the extent to which the dosage of isotretinoin influences disease severity is unclear

Source:UC Berkeley Previously Published Works

Title: Effects of isotretinoin on meibomian glands

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/41k4v4h1

Journal Optometry and Vision Science, 92(9)

RE: Even in people taking Accutane, night vision being affected is uncommon. 

How do you know that it's uncommon? Anyways, as I stated earlier, if my night vision issues were due to VAD then the condition should have gotten worse with time. That hasn’t happened. Currently my night vision is very good, and on par with that of my 16 yo son. We are just getting into winter here, so we’ll see what happens this year.

RE: But Grant, why are we talking about retinoic acid toxicity

Because RA is the direct metabolite of vitamin A. How can the direct metabolite of vA now being absolutely proven to cause the destruction of the tissues of the eye be needed at the same time?  I know the claim that it’s the dose that makes the poison. Well, maybe, but I have way too much respect for nature to buy into that in this regard. BTW, vitamin A is claimed to be needed only for night vision and not at all for daytime vision.  Although I doubt it facilitates night vision, there might be some truth to that. Time will tell.

RE: when you are one of the least likely people in the world to be experiencing it? There is no way you can attribute these symptoms to vitamin A toxicity for yourself.

You’d sure think not. But, we really don’t know because very few people have gone on an ultralow vA diet for as long as I have. Therefore, we really don’t know yet how long it will take to completely deplete tissues of all stored vA. As reported in the paper on AMD, they show that the lipofuscin progressively accumulates for more than 40 years (at least so by my age).  Could some of that lipofuscin being metabolized and finally being cleared cause eye damage? Sure could be.

RE: It’s a similar situation with xeropthalmia.  About 200,000 new cases are diagnosed each year in the USA. You mean dry eyes? 

Yes, I think that’s correct. I’ll see if I can find a reference, but I believe it was for an official diagnosis of what they termed “Dry Eye Disease '', not just intermittent dry eyes. But, dry eye disease is definitely on the xerophthalmia spectrum definition too. So, we are kind of splitting hairs with the definition.

Although you and I disagree on the theory of “vitamin A” being essential, I think we are in alignment on other aspects of this topic. That is 1) vitamin A toxicity is far more prevalent than commonly acknowledged. And 2) being a “vitamin” or not, there is no way for people to completely avoid it. So, I do agree that just adopting a sensible low vitamin A is far safer and more sensible.

But, if we could overturn this claim of "it's a vitamin", then we might have a (admittedly very slim) chance of stopping the supplementation of it in common foods.

Thanks

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 10:04 am

Hi @jiri,

Sorry, I don't have access to discretionary testing at this time. All lab work here needs to be requested via a doctor, and they typically refuse to do testing without a perceived health condition to justify the cost.

 

 

Quote from Даниил on October 31, 2021, 10:51 am

I am wondering how likely it is that those extensive eye lesions observed in xerophthalmia are caused by a lack of retinaldehyde. I don't know enough about organic chemistry to answer this question. @johannes2 ?

Quote from Jiří on October 31, 2021, 11:15 am

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 10:04 am

Hi @jiri,

Sorry, I don't have access to discretionary testing at this time. All lab work here needs to be requested via a doctor, and they typically refuse to do testing without a perceived health condition to justify the cost.

 

 

It's weird that they will not do the test even if you pay for it? It's like they want make sure you can't heal yourself. Crazy.. Here in Czech Republic you can do blood tests and pay for them basically everywhere..

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 11:38 am

It's crazy indeed, because we don't even have the option to directly pay for it. What's really crazy is that they've been testing everyone and their dogs for COVID-19, at a huge expense to the taxpayer, searching a huge number of people who have absolutely no symptoms of disease. So, it's such as ridiculous double standard.

 

 

Quote from Armin on October 31, 2021, 4:21 pm

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 6:00 am

Hi @tim-2,

Thanks for the follow up questions:

Re: However this does not prove that one's diet is optimal or sustainable long term. 

Yes, I agree. I’ve never stated that I think my diet is optimal. It’s just the opposite; I’ve stated before that I highly suspect my personal diet is suboptimal.  I think going on an ultra-low vitamin A diet is likely too limited in other needed nutrients. I think this may be one of the reasons so many people are experiencing slow progress. This is why I started a forum topic a while ago to see if we could establish a more optimal diet.

Hey Grant.

In what ways do you suspect that your diet is suboptimal? What other nutrients do you suspect that you may not be getting enough of? Just curious what your musings are.

Quote from ggenereux on October 31, 2021, 7:29 pm

Hi @armin,

In the thread I started before on this topic the opinion quickly surfaced that there’s probably not going to be an optimal diet that fits everyone. That’s primarily because each person’s situation is varied and unique to them.  

For myself, I suspect I might be a bit too low on some minerals such as calcium, potassium, and magnesium. I know I do get some of these from the beans, but I’m not sure it’s enough. However, on the other hand my overall feeling of health and well-being is really quite good. So, I can’t be too far off with my diet either. 

I’m not planning on changing my diet this year other than that I’ve decided to go exclusively with bison over beef. This change is not for any big reason.  It’s just a personal choice since I know the rancher that raises the bison. A minor benefit is that bison is lower in fat compared to beef, and I’ll therefore be slightly lower in my (trivial) vA intake.