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A Best Practices Diet
You're not responding to any of the questions or points I made. You seem emotional.
You live your life and leave me to live how I choose. It's working for me and many of the other long term sufferers doing the vit A reduction. Would you rather they continued to suffer ?
The more important question is why did you just stoop to implying that I wish harm on others simply for pointing out concerns about TMAO?
@jessica2
I've been in this forum for years telling people to include eggs in their diet while most were totally avoiding them. For years people were terrified about including eggs because of the vitamin A and carotenoids they contain. I pointed out again and again that the nutrients eggs contain are important and would also help vit A depletion. I haven't been here for a while and it seems now the consensus has flipped to high egg consumption being gospel.
The problem I see with the idea that "no one chooses to eat 3 eggs a day" is that no one also chooses to become retinoid/vitamin A toxic.
Straying from conservative traditional eating patterns almost always leads to a less optimal diet. Practicing caution isn't wrong just because being cautious doesn't protect people 100% of the time. Hypervitaminosis A is mostly a result of fortification, supplementation, "healthy eating" conditioning and a lack of historical factors that depleted vit A such as sun exposure, wood smoke inhalation, hookworm infection and viral infection. Hypervitaminosis A is more a result of lack of caution rather than being cautious and conservative.
The question relevent in this forum is "does this potentially help detox processes?" rather than "what would we naturally eat?
For years I've explained in detail why a conservative balanced diet is optimal. A diet containing all food groups (dairy optional) that also includes white flour and sugar.
I would naturally eat a lot of tomato sauces and dairy if left to myself and no toxicity present.
Xeropthalmia (I don't deny vitamin A as a vitamin) was common in the past before modern ideas of healthy eating. The ancient Egyptians and others all knew that the cure for it was consuming liver. Before modern ideas of healthy eating most diets were not high in vit A. Most people in poorer countries have the ability to source high vit A foods yet median Mexican intake is 20% of median american intakes.
I think eggs help and the TMAO concern is overblown and focusing on that and being afraid of it will not help you resolve vitamin A issues. If you're scared of TMAO you also better cut out meat, as that's a major source as well.
Many really struggle with nutritional science due to an inability to weigh up benefit and risk in a measured way. People go carnivore due to finding out about plant poisons. Others find out about vitamin A and get orthorexic about small amounts of carotenoids. Others are obsessed with PUFAs. Someone researching TMAO and oxysterols might go vegan. TMAO is worth mentioning if someone is over enthusiastic about consuming choline, aside from that it's not a major concern.
@tim-2 Hi Tim.. You said
"Most people do not naturally choose to eat 3 eggs per day"
" Just a few eggs per week like most choose to consume naturally alongside a balanced diet will supply adequate nutrition."
Its really interesting.. I struggle to understand how someone eats "couple or few eggs per week" ? like somebody eats 1 egg per meal every other day or eats some cake with eggs in it on Sunday morning or how it works? I actually think that if we talk about eggs most people would eat them for breakfast and they keep eating the ideal amount for them. I would say 2-3 eats most people and I also would think that people who make their breakfast they eat it basically daily. So actually I would think that if people eat eggs they eat their ideal amount every single time. Who will eat 1 egg for one meal and 5 eggs in another? Also if we are talking about few/couple eggs per week. Just look at how much protein or other micronutrients it is if you divide lets say 3-4 eggs by 7 days. It's nothing.. So to me it's almost pointless to talk about some effect on the body with this small amount.. It's like saying 4 bites to beef steak per week... Doesn't make sense to me..
I'm grateful for both Tim and Andrew's points of view.
For me, I bought a bag of organic beets, diced up one large one, put it with salt in a jar on the counter for a few days and I am having a heaping teaspoon a day of the lacto-fermented beets. I haven't even made it through one beet, haha. So I'm not really worried that this is going to overwhelm me with change. (I think next time I might shred it for a better texture) This is the kind of "supplement" I can get my mind around... and determine if I see things moving in a good direction with any long-standing symptoms. I probably won't do it all the time, but winter is a traditional time for root veggies. I wonder if my desire for red and purple berries might be about this betaine thing.
Tim's insights are always welcome...that overall we probably don't need much more than what a normal diet provides. This is a smart thought because I think when we get too "heroic" about things we end up down blind alleys and in danger even. It's not good to experiment too much with diet. I've learned that the hard way.
As for eggs, we already were eating the amount Jiri talks about above--eggs for breakfast. I eat about half the serving my husband does as I'm half as big a person. (I cook 4 X-large eggs each morning) Now, after reading Andrew's posts about eggs, I don't worry if we go a little over that amount in our lives. Say, in baked goods or an appetizer. Eggs are good for us, IMO. I think that eggs for breakfast has probably always been a farm thing. I DON'T think pounding down blenders full of eggs has ever been a traditional thing (as I saw my bodybuilder friend do).
Quote from Andrew B on January 7, 2023, 12:54 pm@grapes Beetroot isn't high in carotenoids. It's actually very good for liver health. It's good for betaine as well.
Recently I've been eating "burgers" and noticed a flare in some symptoms. After looking at the label it says only 75% meet, and one of the main ingredients is beet powder. Sure maybe it was something else contributing to symptoms, but I suspect beet.
On the topic of eggs I eat it by periods with cantonese rice. As it comes prepared it's hard to tell the quantity of eggs inside. It's a bit annoying though as there is a lot of peas with it, I try not to eat them.
Things didn't work out so well for Gaston...
Hi @jiri hope you are well.
" Just a few eggs per week like most choose to consume naturally alongside a balanced diet will supply adequate nutrition."
Eggs are not essential for a diet to provide adequate nutrition but I would argue that eggs are somewhat essential if seafood is not a large part of a diet. Doing a quick search it looks like mean egg consumption is about 5 eggs per week. A small % of people like bodybuilders are buying lots of eggs so I think it's probably fairly accurate to say median egg consumption is just a few eggs per week. This will contribute towards one's iodine, selenium, DHA, choline, biotin, B vitamin requirements, it doesn't have to cover them. Most people are not eating eggs every day. Many healthy people never eat them. There is no perfect food and eggs are no exception, they are one of the most allergenic foods around and they were only eaten seasonally for most of human history.
For most of human history the diet included eggs, freshwater fish, lizards, snakes and insects. These foods contain iodine, selenium and DHA. Very key nutrients this is why I have always insisted that eggs and seafood be included in the diet. In anticipation of people getting triggered by the mention of seafood it is NOT universally high A and it is NOT universally contaminated with pollution and heavy metals.
To conclude, am I saying that eating a few eggs a week is optimal and we shouldn't eat more than that? No, but I also don't see health rationalizations for eating 3 eggs per day as sound. My guess is that for most people optimal egg consumption falls somewhere in between.
All this egg talk is making me hungry for some bacon and french toast..
@jessica2
I'm of the opinion there is no "moderate" amount of refined sugar that is healthy and its best to avoid as much as possible.
This opinion is now shared by most of modern society. There is little scientific or historical basis for avoiding all sugar. Unless someone has fructose malabsorption fructose acts as a nutrient when not consumed in excess. There is little difference health wise between white sugar, brown sugar, honey and maple syrup. Human digestive anatomy is that of a processed cooked food eater, even hunter gatherers processed and refined starch from grains and tubers as much as possible. There are african tribes that feast on honey by itself regularly that have low rates of diabetes and chronic disease. Sugar fear mongering is a mass psychosis and scapegoat for more complex causes of illness. Sugar consumption was much lower in the past yes, what they don't mention is that it replaced honey consumption. Honey production was a major industry and honey was an important source of calories in medieval Europe.
Hi @lil-chick hope you are well. Yep you've been saying for years to be cautious and conservative with diet, it makes sense on many levels.
@jessica2
I didn't say occasional honey or maple syrup or molasses was bad. I mean refined white sugar. I stand by that and we can agree to disagree and I won't call what you say about 3 eggs per day for detox support fear mongering and mass psychosis either.
When I said "Sugar fear mongering is a mass psychosis" I wasn't saying you were fear mongering I was addressing how it's now a demonized food just like saturated fat was. There are many influencers and authors making a career out of demonizing it, everyday people repeat nonsense about it saying it's responsible for most chronic illness, it's poison etc. That's mass psychosis. You can call me presenting evidence on potential downsides of high choline consumption and then defending myself fear mongering but it's not.
The reason I see sugar being demonized being a problem is not only does it potentially socially isolate people when they unnecessarily restrict their diet but it cuts out a valuable and healthy part of the diet. Because sugar hatred is now a part of our zeitgeist it seems absurd to call sugar healthy but when you realize that sugar, white flour, white rice and lard are really the only sources of calories almost free of anti nutrients it starts to make more sense. Whole grains, nuts, legumes and vegetables are loaded with anti nutrients like enzyme inhibitors, phytates, lectins and oxalates. Fruit is full of pectin that gut flora degrade into methanol and which then metabolizes into formaldehyde. Dairy contains lactose, galactose, casein, BCM7, vit A, estrogen and more. Humans are not carnivores and are not great at gluconeogenesis but even for carnivores protein is a dirty energy source. Our cells run on glucose, even after a month of ketosis and zero carbs the brain still needs glucose. Glucose is by far the most efficient and preferred energy source for most cells. That's why both sugar and refined grain is a healthy part of a balanced diet and why we have a sweet tooth for a reason.
Many cultures kept and raised fowl and ate the eggs given, it wasn't some anomaly here and there I think.
Yes. I was making a point that eggs were a seasonal part of the diet for most of human history because most of human history didn't involve farming.
I avoided sugar for many many years as a WAPFer and also took years off of white carbs like wheat (back then). They are all back in my life now as I feel they are VA-free energy. My lifestyle is very physically active, your mileage will vary.
I lost my sweet tooth in all those years, and so my forays into sugar aren't overwhelming. I don't use sugar in hot drinks, and I tend to bake muffins (rather than cookies, say) in which a full batch has about 1/4 cup of sugar. In fact, I tend to avoid most desserts because they are sickly sweet and most of them are fat bombs too, LOL. They don't make my stomach feel good.
I make no-knead bread from organic white flour, although sometimes I do add a bit of rye or spelt. It contains no sugar or oils. The no-knead recipe I use is on the blurred line between sourdough and no-knead because you rise the new dough on baking day and let it autolyse in the fridge for 3-5 days and repeat. It's so easy.
I have other vices I worry about more than sugar now... 🙂
Quote from tim on January 8, 2023, 4:26 pm@jessica2
I didn't say occasional honey or maple syrup or molasses was bad. I mean refined white sugar. I stand by that and we can agree to disagree and I won't call what you say about 3 eggs per day for detox support fear mongering and mass psychosis either.
When I said "Sugar fear mongering is a mass psychosis" I wasn't saying you were fear mongering I was addressing how it's now a demonized food just like saturated fat was. There are many influencers and authors making a career out of demonizing it, everyday people repeat nonsense about it saying it's responsible for most chronic illness, it's poison etc. That's mass psychosis. You can call me presenting evidence on potential downsides of high choline consumption and then defending myself fear mongering but it's not.
The reason I see sugar being demonized being a problem is not only does it potentially socially isolate people when they unnecessarily restrict their diet but it cuts out a valuable and healthy part of the diet. Because sugar hatred is now a part of our zeitgeist it seems absurd to call sugar healthy but when you realize that sugar, white flour, white rice and lard are really the only sources of calories almost free of anti nutrients it starts to make more sense. Whole grains, nuts, legumes and vegetables are loaded with anti nutrients like enzyme inhibitors, phytates, lectins and oxalates. Fruit is full of pectin that gut flora degrade into methanol and which then metabolizes into formaldehyde. Dairy contains lactose, galactose, casein, BCM7, vit A, estrogen and more. Humans are not carnivores and are not great at gluconeogenesis but even for carnivores protein is a dirty energy source. Our cells run on glucose, even after a month of ketosis and zero carbs the brain still needs glucose. Glucose is by far the most efficient and preferred energy source for most cells. That's why both sugar and refined grain is a healthy part of a balanced diet and why we have a sweet tooth for a reason.
Many cultures kept and raised fowl and ate the eggs given, it wasn't some anomaly here and there I think.
Yes. I was making a point that eggs were a seasonal part of the diet for most of human history because most of human history didn't involve farming.
Interesting stuff.
When it comes to the microbiome, where do you currently stand? Is it as essential as many say and what is the best approach to create "gut health"? What medium (fat, sugar, fiber, etc) do you think promotes the worse gut offenders? Soluble fiber as you mentioned can be degraded to methanol and also secondary bile acids. Is clean starch the best bet, along with moderate protein and lowish fat?