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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity
Quote from tim on April 9, 2024, 12:28 amYep. Some of them do do regular blood donations but that won't deplete vitamin A like hookworms do. Blood donations aren't as good because it's a sudden big loss vs daily loss of blood.
I've posted before about how the whole Paleo diet scene is based on very incorrect foundations. The influencers create this idea for people that grains and legumes were not eaten during the Paleolithic when they probably were in significant amounts. We've also probably made significant dietary adaptations since the start of the Neolithic. Dairy is the only non Paleolithic food yet they often eat it. They seem to deny science and history that contradicts their narrative.
Meat + Dairy + Fruit + Organ meats. That's Saladino's diet in a nutshell yeah? So gross. It contradicts our physiological needs as well as evidence from the Paleolithic and like you point out even if it was Paleolithically correct it's not adjusted for the modern lifestyle.
I don't use Traditional Chinese Medicine concepts that often but they align with my understanding of nutrition and I think TCM has a lot of value. Saladino's diet is basically the inverse of TCM dietary recommendations. One has to wonder if he actually eats the diet that he preaches.
Saladinos diet has very little fiber, apart from fruit.. No soluble fiber. I am sure he can come away with it still, because of how he lives. I too am curious though, how long. He´s blood work was showing sign of some issues, like high ferritin and some other I cant remember now.
Quote from AlexM on April 9, 2024, 2:49 amQuote from Janelle525 on April 8, 2024, 4:41 pmYou mean kinda like how food is not just about one nutrient and has multiple things? Why not just eat food? I'm sure you will say that they formulated the supplement based on hair tests. But even gboldeuv said to never take something everyday and to take the least amount of stuff because then it will age you. Anyway I'm not trying to convince you, it's about the discussion.
@janelle525 Well because most people can't fix their HTMA levels/patterns and oxidation rate just by diet alone, hence why they made the supplements to address those issues.
Gbolduev was recommending TEIs programme to people because he knew it worked solving peoples health issues... He would be able to answer you answer question about how Vit A raises the oxidation rate if he was still around.
When people on here act like everyone can get all the nutrients they need from diet I find it cringe. Slow oxidisers have poor digestion so they're not obtaining the nutrients from food like they should be doing. That is another thing the parapack did is it also improved how I felt from eating foods too.
Yeah and when we speak about this, your questions about why you shouldn't take it never end so it is largely a waste of time for both of us. So let's not continue I'm finding it annoying now.
If it's annoying to discuss it with me why are you still discussing it?
I believed in HTMA despite that I never did buy into the supplements. I just never saw very many people who could continue getting better with it, I think you are the only one I know that has such raving reviews. I wasn't involved with gboldeuv stuff though. I mean Garrett Smith believed in it in his practice and look where that got him! Now he's coming up with his own theories because his patients didn't get better with the recommendations. I think he did give them more vitamin A than what was in the parapack though. But that was because he was into WAPF too which is obviously a disaster for many people. Though I do follow a number of homesteaders doing great on 'real food'. One is having her 5th child in a month. I'm watching a video right now of her coming up with ways to use the abundance of eggs they have. Like 25 dozen eggs lol. I was thinking oh no!! lol but they are all very healthy. They have a few colds a yr I think to get rid of all the carotenoids and vitamin A they consume. And working outside a lot they get plenty of sunlight to burn through it too.
I just find it silly to believe any practitioner/protocol has the holy grail to health. Dr Revici was curing cancer with oils. He based his stuff on catabolic/anabolic stuff. Which I find more interesting than slow or fast oxidation as I've seen direct evidence of certain things perported to be catabolic send me catabolic, one being magnesium, seems many people are too far on the anabolic side and magnesium helps push them a little further catabolic to produce energy to sleep well (it can backfire and cause waking up all night!). How does HTMA explain why magnesium works? Dr. Wilson's explanations are so esoteric as to be labelled quackery. The Sir on the raypeatforum follows Wilson's stuff and he got annoyed with me too when I pressed him for an explanation on how Wilson came up with his theories (it's esoteric he uses 'guides', foods have 'souls'). TEI just has lists of recommendations I've never seen any explanation given.
I follow a guy who bases his practice on some of Revici's work and also optimizing digestion. Because how can you heal if you don't absorb stuff, you are just throwing everything but the kitchen sink at it hoping something gets absorbed. How about get stomach acid and bile working so that you CAN absorb stuff from food? That helped me the most out of anything I ever tried. Betaine hcl and digestive enzymes with heavy meals and coffee enemas. I think you are a fan of coffee enemas too. Gerson therapy did that as well.
If you can't create the sizzle in your digestive tract it doesn't matter how many supplements you take, but great that you find you digest better when you take the parapack. I think it could be that when you give enough b vitamins to your gut microbes that digestion can function better, there was a doctor curing the sleep apnea headache with b vitamins she also found the microbes need vitamin D as well. So there ya go, explanation on why homesteaders (who don't eat liver or cod liver oil) can have great health. Fresh real food with b vitamins that feed good microbes in their gut and plenty of sunshine.
Quote from tim on April 8, 2024, 6:52 pmWe do absorb lectins and different blood types do react differently to certain lectins. Most lectins probably react with all blood types though.
The actual distribution of blood types among hunter gatherers, pastoralists and agriculturalists is not what the blood type theory claims.
Blood type does determine susceptibility to different diseases.
I don't think the Blood Type diet has much merit.
Many people do like to eat a lot of red meat. If you test serum ferritin in many of them it'll be sky high. Iron overload is not always caused directly by red meat consumption but some will have hereditary hemochromatosis.
Many that love high fat dairy have subclinical Hypervitaminosis A.
Some people love to eat liver too..
It seems that instincts are not that reliable in many.
Having said that though some people may legitimately need more red meat for some reason like for carnitine, zinc, iron, taurine, creatine, riboflavin or B12.
In the past most people were infected with Ancylostoma duodenale the old world hookworm. It drinks a lot of blood. My opinion on hookworms is that they are symbiotic beneficial parasites. They have a strong vitamin A and iron lowering effect. They have potent autoimmunity reducing effects. The instinct to eat more red meat than is healthy may be due to evolving with this parasite (along with leeches and biting insects).
It's serum ferritin that determines iron stores. I see iron as similar to vitamin A, you don't want to be deficient but you also don't want much in excess of sufficiency levels. I see optimal serum ferritin as being about 50 - 70 mcg/l in a healthy person.
Yeah for anyone depleting vitamin A it's key to keep ascorbate levels up. Once one has depleted vitamin A dietary sources of vitamin C should be sufficient.
What do you think about Chris Masterjohn saying it's actually manganese toxicity doing the damage with hemochromotosis? We actually want more iron coming in than manganese and many on plant based diets have far too much manganese. Could explain why pant based eaters look so wrinkled. https://chrismasterjohnphd.substack.com/p/iron-overload-forget-what-you-thought
@alexm what you think about taking some baking soda in water away from food? It should help the body deal with acids if it is needed? Bile is alkaline as well. I wonder if the body has hard time making bile due to low bicarbonate for example? I think I will try to drop that vit C that I am mixing with baking soda and drink just half a tsp of baking soda in water in the morning on empty stomach.
@janelle525 Because I was trying to answer your questions but that never gets anywhere. It seems like you're just trying to prove to yourself why you shouldn't take it rather than actually being interested in any of my answers to your questions. And no one is asking you to take it in the first place so not sure why you are always replying in such a defensive manner. Possibly you're in a calcium shell pattern and this is why you're acting like this (calcium shell people are very defensive and stuck in their ways).
And on the RP forum a month or two ago you were being super militant and serious about Garrets low Vit A approach and now you're back to eating dairy lol... One thing I do know is your HTMA results won't be improving with that approach.
Quote from Jiří on April 9, 2024, 9:31 am@alexm what you think about taking some baking soda in water away from food? It should help the body deal with acids if it is needed? Bile is alkaline as well. I wonder if the body has hard time making bile due to low bicarbonate for example? I think I will try to drop that vit C that I am mixing with baking soda and drink just half a tsp of baking soda in water in the morning on empty stomach.
Yes you can try it, it would be helpful if you have acidemia/acidosis. Most CFS people have acidemia. I don't think it would help make bile though but if you have any pathogens which are keeping your gut environment acidic to survive, then maybe it could help in that regard.
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I've been commenting on it being a bad idea to take any supplement containing manganese for years. I read something about it being involved in the development of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and noticed that based on RDAs that it like copper tends to be over supplied in the diet.
Masterjohn's article contains important information that I wasn't aware of.
It may be necessary for some to follow a low manganese diet however I disagree with him that everyone with a genetic predisposition to iron overload necessarily needs to start doing that.
I suspect that while HH can make one very susceptible to iron and manganese toxicity that it's not guaranteed. It may be that toxicity normally occurs once some kind of liver dysfunction occurs.
The environment and the human genome are closely entangled and many genetic variations that occur in human populations are the result of adaptive selection to ancestral environmental (mainly dietary) conditions. However, the selected mutations may become maladaptive when environmental conditions change, thus becoming candidates for diseases. Hereditary hemochromatosis (HH) is a potentially lethal disease leading to iron accumulation mostly due to mutations in the HFE gene. Indeed, homozygosity for the C282Y HFE mutation is associated with the primary iron overload phenotype. However, both penetrance of the C282Y variant and the clinical manifestation of the disease are extremely variable, suggesting that other genetic, epigenetic and environmental factors play a role in the development of HH, as well as, and in its progression to end-stage liver diseases.
Liver dysfunction can cause iron overload in those without HH.
Several lines of evidence indicate that ferritin levels and body iron stores should be considered as hallmarks of metabolic syndrome (MetS) whose key pathogenic feature is represented by insulin resistance (IR) [54,55,56]. Patients affected by nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD), which is considered the hepatic manifestation of MetS [57], are frequently characterized by mild hepatic iron accumulation [58]. The pathological condition that encompasses fatty liver, increased ferritin levels and enhanced body iron depots in the presence of IR, is referred to as dysmetabolic iron overload syndrome (DIOS). DIOS is observed in 15%–30% of patients with MetS and it is considered the most common iron overload disorder [59].
Hyperinsulinemia may cause iron overload.
Insulin signaling and iron homeostasis are closely entangled, as revealed by a broad number of clinical and preclinical studies [68,69]. Insulin is able to stimulate ferritin synthesis and facilitates iron uptake. In turn, increased iron concentrations lead to peripheral hyperinsulinemia [70]. The likely mechanism through which the iron excess impairs hepatocyte insulin sensitivity is due to its direct interfering with the insulin receptor and intracellular insulin signaling cascade [71]. Moreover, pancreatic β-cells are extremely sensitive to iron-related ROS, thus precipitating T2D and its comorbidities onset [60].
Hypervitaminosis A may do too.
Vitamin A is a fat-soluble antioxidant molecule and it is also involved in iron homeostasis. It has been demonstrated that Vitamin A positively affects intestinal iron absorption. Indeed, its supplementation has been shown to prevent the inhibitory effect of phytates and polyphenols on iron absorption by sequestering iron in soluble complexes thus improving non-heme iron absorption from phytates-rich foods such as rice, wheat and corn [121].
Iron and manganese dysregulation may occur via epigenetic effects.
However, the field of diet-epigenome interaction in HH and its comorbidities remains largely unexplored.
VDR receptor resistance (caused by mold, heavy metals, electrosmog, Hypervitaminosis A, liver dysfunction) may play a major role in manganese overload.
Notably, genes implicated in zinc, manganese and iron homeostasis were largely increased by vitamin D3 treatment. An ∼10-fold increase in ceruloplasmin and ∼4-fold increase in haptoglobin gene expression suggested a possible association between vitamin D and iron homeostasis. SLC30A10, the gene encoding the zinc and manganese transporter ZnT10, was the chiefly affected transporter, with ∼15-fold increase in expression. SLC30A10 is critical for zinc and manganese homeostasis and mutations in this gene, resulting in impaired ZnT10 function or expression, cause manganese intoxication, with Parkinson-like symptoms.
In conclusion, we have shown that vitamin D3 transactivates the SLC30A10 gene in a VDR-dependent manner, resulting in increased ZnT10 protein expression. Because SLC30A10 is highly expressed in the small intestine, it is possible that the control of zinc and manganese systemic levels is regulated by vitamin D3 in the intestine.
Through optimising overall health I think it may be possible for those with genetic susceptibility to iron and manganese overload to remain healthy without dietary restrictions.
If someone can maintain healthy iron levels without the use of phlebotomy that may be a good indicator for healthy manganese levels too.
We actually want more iron coming in than manganese and many on plant based diets have far too much manganese. Could explain why pant based eaters look so wrinkled.
Once manganese homeostasis regulation is disrupted then yeah eating a lot of whole plant foods may be problematic and eating an animal based diet may be best.
An animal based diet can cause liver stress though and may not facilitate the restoration of liver health.
If homeostasis is lost it signals liver dysfunction and health may not be present on any diet until normal organ function is restored.
The goal should always be to restore homeostasis not unnecessarily accept the need to eat restrictively on a permanent basis.
Have you ever read any of Jan Kwasniewski's books? He treated many patients at his sanatorium with a low carb, adequate protein, very high fat diet including many egg yolks (which provide a lot of choline to handle all the fat). It's possible this diet could be helpful for people with Type 1 diabetes as well as manganese and iron overload.