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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itAll Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: …

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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

#31 · March 25, 2024, 10:52 am

Quote from Luke on March 25, 2024, 10:52 am
@nocarrotsforme

Also, I'll share what's in my supplementation toolbox, just in case it offers any helpful insights. Please note that I don't take these every day; I use them intermittently unless specified otherwise. Over the past 15 years, I've refined my list, which represents the culmination of tens of thousands of hours of research.

Minerals:

Calcium (as hydroxyapatite): 750mg, as needed

Magnesium (as glycinate): 400mg, as needed

Magnesium Topical Spray: 400-800mg, daily

Copper (as glycinate): 6mg, daily

Boron (as glycinate): 10mg, as needed

Molybdenum (as glycinate): 500mcg, as needed

Zinc (as methionine): 30mg, as needed

Selenium (as methionine): 200mcg, as needed

Manganese (as citrate): 8mg, as needed

Iodine (as Lugols): 25-50mg, daily

Salt: to taste

Potassium (as chloride): 1.5g, daily

Other:

Taurine: 5g, daily

Glucose: 30g, daily. I see this as a form of supplementation. Zero carb doesn't seem logical to me. Glucose plays a vital role (in GAGs, Glucuronidation, etc.). Consuming 30g of glucose each day can maintain ketosis while alleviating many of the burdens associated with gluconeogenesis.

Glycine: 10-15g, daily

Ubiquinol: 200mg, daily

Niacin (as nicotinic acid): 3g, daily

Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid): 3g, daily

K2 (as MK7): 100mcg, daily

Choline (as bitartrate): 500mg, daily

Creatine: 5g, daily

TMG: 1g, daily

B1 (as Thiamine HCL): 500mg, as needed

Melatonin: 10mg, daily

Apple Pectin: 2.8g, as needed

Psyllium Fiber: as needed

Activate Charcoal: as needed

Glucuronolactone: as needed

Food:

Typically, I consume 1.5 pounds of organic, grass-fed/finished 90/10 beef per day. I prepare 3 pounds at once, which takes me about 10 minutes and feeds me for 2 days. To this, I add 3 tablespoons of pure glucose (roughly 30g of sugar) for every 1.5 pounds, along with salt and powdered shiitake mushrooms to enhance the umami flavor. I find myself craving this meal and thoroughly enjoy it. Nowadays, most spices and sauces evoke a sense of repulsion in me, which is quite a shift considering I used to be a salsa fiend.

Depending on whether I'm following a keto diet or not (I cycle often), I'll adjust my additional calorie intake accordingly. When on keto, I supplement with coconut oil to ensure I reach at least 2200 calories per day. If not on keto, I consume 2 cups of organic sprouted oats (1 cup in the morning and 1 in the evening).

I steer clear of fructose as it tends to trigger psychiatric disturbances for me. I anticipate maintaining this dietary approach indefinitely, so long as my health outcomes remain consistent. I feel more liberated in my dietary choices than ever before, devoid of cravings, and relish the freedom from food dominating so much of my mental real estate.

@nocarrotsforme

Also, I'll share what's in my supplementation toolbox, just in case it offers any helpful insights. Please note that I don't take these every day; I use them intermittently unless specified otherwise. Over the past 15 years, I've refined my list, which represents the culmination of tens of thousands of hours of research.

Minerals:

Calcium (as hydroxyapatite): 750mg, as needed
Magnesium (as glycinate): 400mg, as needed
Magnesium Topical Spray: 400-800mg, daily
Copper (as glycinate): 6mg, daily
Boron (as glycinate): 10mg, as needed
Molybdenum (as glycinate): 500mcg, as needed
Zinc (as methionine): 30mg, as needed
Selenium (as methionine): 200mcg, as needed
Manganese (as citrate): 8mg, as needed
Iodine (as Lugols): 25-50mg, daily
Salt: to taste
Potassium (as chloride): 1.5g, daily

Other:

Taurine: 5g, daily
Glucose: 30g, daily. I see this as a form of supplementation. Zero carb doesn't seem logical to me. Glucose plays a vital role (in GAGs, Glucuronidation, etc.). Consuming 30g of glucose each day can maintain ketosis while alleviating many of the burdens associated with gluconeogenesis.
Glycine: 10-15g, daily
Ubiquinol: 200mg, daily
Niacin (as nicotinic acid): 3g, daily
Vitamin C (as Ascorbic Acid): 3g, daily
K2 (as MK7): 100mcg, daily
Choline (as bitartrate): 500mg, daily
Creatine: 5g, daily
TMG: 1g, daily
B1 (as Thiamine HCL): 500mg, as needed
Melatonin: 10mg, daily
Apple Pectin: 2.8g, as needed
Psyllium Fiber: as needed
Activate Charcoal: as needed
Glucuronolactone: as needed

Food:

Typically, I consume 1.5 pounds of organic, grass-fed/finished 90/10 beef per day. I prepare 3 pounds at once, which takes me about 10 minutes and feeds me for 2 days. To this, I add 3 tablespoons of pure glucose (roughly 30g of sugar) for every 1.5 pounds, along with salt and powdered shiitake mushrooms to enhance the umami flavor. I find myself craving this meal and thoroughly enjoy it. Nowadays, most spices and sauces evoke a sense of repulsion in me, which is quite a shift considering I used to be a salsa fiend.

Depending on whether I'm following a keto diet or not (I cycle often), I'll adjust my additional calorie intake accordingly. When on keto, I supplement with coconut oil to ensure I reach at least 2200 calories per day. If not on keto, I consume 2 cups of organic sprouted oats (1 cup in the morning and 1 in the evening).

I steer clear of fructose as it tends to trigger psychiatric disturbances for me. I anticipate maintaining this dietary approach indefinitely, so long as my health outcomes remain consistent. I feel more liberated in my dietary choices than ever before, devoid of cravings, and relish the freedom from food dominating so much of my mental real estate.

Arios and Bella have reacted to this post.

#32 · March 25, 2024, 11:34 am

Quote from Janelle525 on March 25, 2024, 11:34 am

They aren't "under-methylators"; they're simply "under-nourished."

@luke Great statement!

But why are you supplementing choline? Here is how it is produced:

" The preparation method of the choline bitartrate comprises the steps of firstly reacting tartaric acid and trimethylamine in a molar ratio of 0.8-1.2: 2 to generate trimethylamine tartrate, then adding ethylene oxide into the trimethylamine tartrate according to a molar ratio of the trimethylamine tartrate to the ethylene oxide of 1:2 to generate choline bitartrate, then adding tartaric acid into the choline bitartrate according to a molar ratio of the choline bitartrate to the tartaric acid of 1: 0.8-1.2, and finally concentrating, crystallizing and drying to obtain a white or colorless choline bitartrate finished product."

"Aqueous solutions of choline are stable, but the compound slowly breaks down to ethylene glycol, polyethylene glycols, and TMA" That is that fishy odor and that makes people sick. "Excessive consumption of choline (greater than 7.5 grams per day) can cause low blood pressure, sweating, diarrhea and fish-like body smell due to trimethylamine, which forms in the metabolism of choline." But seems reviewers get that from just 250 mg choline bitartrate. Probably converted to TMA which made them sick.

Why wouldn't you just eat an egg a day?

Plus it is so similar to trimethylglycine why do you need more of it? Since you take a lot of nicotinic acid maybe you don't notice the bad effects from so much methyl, but maybe you wouldn't need so much of it if you reduce the choline! Plus nictonic acid is by no means a natural supplement:

" nicotinic acid is produced mainly by oxidation of 5-ethyl-2-methylpyridine with nitric acid."

Pyridine is produced from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.. Why can't we just get it the way we have gotten it for thousands of yrs? From protein. I think Garrett looks worse since starting niacin. I think using it in grams doses is using it like a drug. Which is fine if you know you are doing that. Andrew W Saul, the 'mega vitamin man' died of congestive heart failure at just 69.

They aren't "under-methylators"; they're simply "under-nourished."

@luke Great statement!

But why are you supplementing choline? Here is how it is produced:

" The preparation method of the choline bitartrate comprises the steps of firstly reacting tartaric acid and trimethylamine in a molar ratio of 0.8-1.2: 2 to generate trimethylamine tartrate, then adding ethylene oxide into the trimethylamine tartrate according to a molar ratio of the trimethylamine tartrate to the ethylene oxide of 1:2 to generate choline bitartrate, then adding tartaric acid into the choline bitartrate according to a molar ratio of the choline bitartrate to the tartaric acid of 1: 0.8-1.2, and finally concentrating, crystallizing and drying to obtain a white or colorless choline bitartrate finished product."

"Aqueous solutions of choline are stable, but the compound slowly breaks down to ethylene glycol, polyethylene glycols, and TMA" That is that fishy odor and that makes people sick. "Excessive consumption of choline (greater than 7.5 grams per day) can cause low blood pressure, sweating, diarrhea and fish-like body smell due to trimethylamine, which forms in the metabolism of choline." But seems reviewers get that from just 250 mg choline bitartrate. Probably converted to TMA which made them sick.

Why wouldn't you just eat an egg a day?

Plus it is so similar to trimethylglycine why do you need more of it? Since you take a lot of nicotinic acid maybe you don't notice the bad effects from so much methyl, but maybe you wouldn't need so much of it if you reduce the choline! Plus nictonic acid is by no means a natural supplement:

" nicotinic acid is produced mainly by oxidation of 5-ethyl-2-methylpyridine with nitric acid."

Pyridine is produced from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.. Why can't we just get it the way we have gotten it for thousands of yrs? From protein. I think Garrett looks worse since starting niacin. I think using it in grams doses is using it like a drug. Which is fine if you know you are doing that. Andrew W Saul, the 'mega vitamin man' died of congestive heart failure at just 69.

#33 · March 25, 2024, 6:24 pm

Quote from Luke on March 25, 2024, 6:24 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on March 25, 2024, 11:34 am

They aren't "under-methylators"; they're simply "under-nourished."

@luke Great statement!

But why are you supplementing choline? Here is how it is produced:

" The preparation method of the choline bitartrate comprises the steps of firstly reacting tartaric acid and trimethylamine in a molar ratio of 0.8-1.2: 2 to generate trimethylamine tartrate, then adding ethylene oxide into the trimethylamine tartrate according to a molar ratio of the trimethylamine tartrate to the ethylene oxide of 1:2 to generate choline bitartrate, then adding tartaric acid into the choline bitartrate according to a molar ratio of the choline bitartrate to the tartaric acid of 1: 0.8-1.2, and finally concentrating, crystallizing and drying to obtain a white or colorless choline bitartrate finished product."

"Aqueous solutions of choline are stable, but the compound slowly breaks down to ethylene glycol, polyethylene glycols, and TMA" That is that fishy odor and that makes people sick. "Excessive consumption of choline (greater than 7.5 grams per day) can cause low blood pressure, sweating, diarrhea and fish-like body smell due to trimethylamine, which forms in the metabolism of choline." But seems reviewers get that from just 250 mg choline bitartrate. Probably converted to TMA which made them sick.

Why wouldn't you just eat an egg a day?

Plus it is so similar to trimethylglycine why do you need more of it? Since you take a lot of nicotinic acid maybe you don't notice the bad effects from so much methyl, but maybe you wouldn't need so much of it if you reduce the choline! Plus nictonic acid is by no means a natural supplement:

" nicotinic acid is produced mainly by oxidation of 5-ethyl-2-methylpyridine with nitric acid."

Pyridine is produced from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.. Why can't we just get it the way we have gotten it for thousands of yrs? From protein. I think Garrett looks worse since starting niacin. I think using it in grams doses is using it like a drug. Which is fine if you know you are doing that. Andrew W Saul, the 'mega vitamin man' died of congestive heart failure at just 69.

Hi Janelle @janelle525

You've raised some excellent points that lead into some truly intriguing discussions. I believe this is a multifaceted conversation that warrants careful consideration, addressing each concept individually.

1. Firstly, it's essential to note that chemistry can include substances with intimidating and alarming names, depending on the level of detail one is examining. Formaldehyde (CH₂O) and Glucose (C₆H₁₂O₆) both consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms with the difference being the amount of each specific element and the specific constellation of the molecular constitution. Chemical reactions have the power to convert harmful molecules into life-sustaining ones, and innocuous substances can react to create harmful compounds.

With that said, I'm not overly concerned about the chemical processes involved in synthesizing choline or tartaric acid. If the end product is something I'm comfortable ingesting, I do consider the method of manufacturing or chemical manipulation involved, but generally, I'm not overly worried about it, except for potential contamination (which I'll address later).

At one point, I became so overwhelmed by the abundance of contradictory health information circulating that I felt compelled to delve into intermediate-level chemistry to formulate my own conclusions about how various chemicals and substances interact. A significant trigger for this choice was listening to Dr. Sebi talk about starches and carbonic acid (lol), although I hesitated to fully trust his interpretation of biochemistry. This uncertainty motivated me to embark on a journey of self-learning. Delving into the intricacies of molecular structures, like hydroxyl and carbonyl groups, truly empowered me to discern through some of the misinformation circulating.

2. "Glucose is glucose is glucose," an aphorism indicating that regardless of its source—synthetic or natural—it remains molecularly identical (C₆H₁₂O₆). This idea parallels the debate between "synthetic" and "natural" Vitamin A.

Ascorbic acid is a clear example of this principle and has played a crucial role in improving my health. The majority of empirical evidence in human studies has utilized synthetic ascorbic acid. On a side note, mechanistic data or studies hold less significance in my view. What matters most to me are the outcomes observed in living beings and their health improvements through specific interventions.

3. Contamination. You touch upon a significant point, highlighting that synthetically produced substances can potentially pose toxicity risks. Whether citric acid (C6H8O7) originates from fruit or is manufactured via a fermentation process using specific molds like Aspergillus niger, it retains its chemical identity as citric acid. However, I find that I react to synthetic citric acid while not experiencing the same reaction to naturally sourced citric acid. The reason for this disparity? There's an evident concern regarding chemical byproducts and potential contamination in lab-made citric acid, especially considering the minute size of mycotoxins, which may evade detection by various testing methods. I believe it's wise to evaluate the potential contamination of synthetically produced substances individually, seeking input from others to gauge their experiences.

4. TMAO. Many mechanistic studies have raised concerns about choline and its possible association with TMAO, often leading to sensationalist headlines like "Eggs Increase Your Risk of Heart Disease." Interestingly, many plant-based medical doctors who reference these studies often appear visibly unwell themselves (TMAO appears to be the least of their concerns). In my view, the concern regarding TMAO and choline is overstated, particularly since consuming close to 8 grams of choline— an excessive amount—is impossible without extensive supplementation. When consuming less than a gram, the associated risk becomes practically negligible.

Ideally, I'd obtain all my choline from meat, but that's not always feasible. I avoid eggs, not only due to concerns about their Vitamin A content and carotenoids, but also because they trigger an adverse reaction in me—I feel physically unwell after consuming them. Even the thought of eggs makes me feel nauseated. When I initially eliminated them from my diet, I experienced occasional strange cravings for them. Intuitively, I'm not drawn to their yellow and orange color. Eggs, pork, and butter are reasons why many individuals struggle with the carnivore diet overtime.

5. Nicotinic acid is a different conversation entirely, maybe for another post.

Quote from Janelle525 on March 25, 2024, 11:34 am

They aren't "under-methylators"; they're simply "under-nourished."

@luke Great statement!

But why are you supplementing choline? Here is how it is produced:

" The preparation method of the choline bitartrate comprises the steps of firstly reacting tartaric acid and trimethylamine in a molar ratio of 0.8-1.2: 2 to generate trimethylamine tartrate, then adding ethylene oxide into the trimethylamine tartrate according to a molar ratio of the trimethylamine tartrate to the ethylene oxide of 1:2 to generate choline bitartrate, then adding tartaric acid into the choline bitartrate according to a molar ratio of the choline bitartrate to the tartaric acid of 1: 0.8-1.2, and finally concentrating, crystallizing and drying to obtain a white or colorless choline bitartrate finished product."

"Aqueous solutions of choline are stable, but the compound slowly breaks down to ethylene glycol, polyethylene glycols, and TMA" That is that fishy odor and that makes people sick. "Excessive consumption of choline (greater than 7.5 grams per day) can cause low blood pressure, sweating, diarrhea and fish-like body smell due to trimethylamine, which forms in the metabolism of choline." But seems reviewers get that from just 250 mg choline bitartrate. Probably converted to TMA which made them sick.

Why wouldn't you just eat an egg a day?

Plus it is so similar to trimethylglycine why do you need more of it? Since you take a lot of nicotinic acid maybe you don't notice the bad effects from so much methyl, but maybe you wouldn't need so much of it if you reduce the choline! Plus nictonic acid is by no means a natural supplement:

" nicotinic acid is produced mainly by oxidation of 5-ethyl-2-methylpyridine with nitric acid."

Pyridine is produced from formaldehyde and acetaldehyde.. Why can't we just get it the way we have gotten it for thousands of yrs? From protein. I think Garrett looks worse since starting niacin. I think using it in grams doses is using it like a drug. Which is fine if you know you are doing that. Andrew W Saul, the 'mega vitamin man' died of congestive heart failure at just 69.

Hi Janelle @janelle525

You've raised some excellent points that lead into some truly intriguing discussions. I believe this is a multifaceted conversation that warrants careful consideration, addressing each concept individually.

1. Firstly, it's essential to note that chemistry can include substances with intimidating and alarming names, depending on the level of detail one is examining. Formaldehyde (CH₂O) and Glucose (C₆H₁₂O₆) both consist of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen atoms with the difference being the amount of each specific element and the specific constellation of the molecular constitution. Chemical reactions have the power to convert harmful molecules into life-sustaining ones, and innocuous substances can react to create harmful compounds.

With that said, I'm not overly concerned about the chemical processes involved in synthesizing choline or tartaric acid. If the end product is something I'm comfortable ingesting, I do consider the method of manufacturing or chemical manipulation involved, but generally, I'm not overly worried about it, except for potential contamination (which I'll address later).

At one point, I became so overwhelmed by the abundance of contradictory health information circulating that I felt compelled to delve into intermediate-level chemistry to formulate my own conclusions about how various chemicals and substances interact. A significant trigger for this choice was listening to Dr. Sebi talk about starches and carbonic acid (lol), although I hesitated to fully trust his interpretation of biochemistry. This uncertainty motivated me to embark on a journey of self-learning. Delving into the intricacies of molecular structures, like hydroxyl and carbonyl groups, truly empowered me to discern through some of the misinformation circulating.

2. "Glucose is glucose is glucose," an aphorism indicating that regardless of its source—synthetic or natural—it remains molecularly identical (C₆H₁₂O₆). This idea parallels the debate between "synthetic" and "natural" Vitamin A.

Ascorbic acid is a clear example of this principle and has played a crucial role in improving my health. The majority of empirical evidence in human studies has utilized synthetic ascorbic acid. On a side note, mechanistic data or studies hold less significance in my view. What matters most to me are the outcomes observed in living beings and their health improvements through specific interventions.

3. Contamination. You touch upon a significant point, highlighting that synthetically produced substances can potentially pose toxicity risks. Whether citric acid (C6H8O7) originates from fruit or is manufactured via a fermentation process using specific molds like Aspergillus niger, it retains its chemical identity as citric acid. However, I find that I react to synthetic citric acid while not experiencing the same reaction to naturally sourced citric acid. The reason for this disparity? There's an evident concern regarding chemical byproducts and potential contamination in lab-made citric acid, especially considering the minute size of mycotoxins, which may evade detection by various testing methods. I believe it's wise to evaluate the potential contamination of synthetically produced substances individually, seeking input from others to gauge their experiences.

4. TMAO. Many mechanistic studies have raised concerns about choline and its possible association with TMAO, often leading to sensationalist headlines like "Eggs Increase Your Risk of Heart Disease." Interestingly, many plant-based medical doctors who reference these studies often appear visibly unwell themselves (TMAO appears to be the least of their concerns). In my view, the concern regarding TMAO and choline is overstated, particularly since consuming close to 8 grams of choline— an excessive amount—is impossible without extensive supplementation. When consuming less than a gram, the associated risk becomes practically negligible.

Ideally, I'd obtain all my choline from meat, but that's not always feasible. I avoid eggs, not only due to concerns about their Vitamin A content and carotenoids, but also because they trigger an adverse reaction in me—I feel physically unwell after consuming them. Even the thought of eggs makes me feel nauseated. When I initially eliminated them from my diet, I experienced occasional strange cravings for them. Intuitively, I'm not drawn to their yellow and orange color. Eggs, pork, and butter are reasons why many individuals struggle with the carnivore diet overtime.

5. Nicotinic acid is a different conversation entirely, maybe for another post.

Arios and Bella have reacted to this post.

#34 · March 26, 2024, 8:45 am

Quote from Janelle525 on March 26, 2024, 8:45 am
@luke hey thanks for replying!

I believed that chemicals no matter if they are synthetic or natural were exactly the same, but our body clearly reacts to synthetics much different. I brought up the choline thing because if you look at the negative reviews of choline bitartrate on amazon, over and over again you will see a similar pattern. People commenting that it smelled horrible and that it made them sick, a few went to the ER. Wikipedia stated it breaks down easily to trimethylamine, not exactly something that's healthy. This is why synthetics are inferior. They break down and are contaminated. You may be able to find a fresh batch, some commented they tried a different brand and found it didn't smell, but still it isn't a stable chemical, which necessitates buying fresh bottles so that you aren't consuming something that is putting a burden on your system.

I don't personally react that well to eggs either, but it could be the egg white, I have not tried just an egg yolk a day. I think most eggs are overloaded in toxic carotenoids due to the feed. So it's not the egg's fault. It's the feed.

Anyway, my point was that unless you have a documented deficiency I think supplements aren't extending people's lives. Grant got well by eating real food. I agree with him to be cautious about supplements, health isn't found in a capsule. I do think they can be good crutches, but no one ever said 'crutches made me healthy', they facilitated healing, but it wasn't the thing that cured them unless like I said there's a documented deficiency. Minerals can be a different story, we obviously need a certain amount of minerals. The copper, manganese, and boron are questionable. Manganese and copper toxicity is incredibly hard to treat, according to Chris Masterjohn you want 4 times the amount of iron as manganese always every single day otherwise instead of iron overload you get manganese overload and if you do have the genes for iron overload you may want to limit manganese to 2 mg a day. Boron seems estrogenic.

When I was researching thiamine I stumbled on a youtuber who claimed he nearly died from thiamine deficiency, a year later and he's still sick. Was it really a thiamine deficiency if he wasn't cured by thiamine? He goes over how he was starved and neglected as a child, sounds like that's the thing that ultimately made him sick later on (adverse childhood experiences are risk factors for severe illness in adults), not thiamine deficiency. When they discovered thiamine they could completely cure animals with it, it wasn't like a partial recovery, it was complete recovery. Chickens who were dying of beriberi completely cured rapidly. Same with any nutrient deficiency that I know of. But nowadays you have people claiming they need 3 grams niacin a day or 2,000 mg of thiamine hcl, or 10,000 grams of ascorbic acid a day. I do wonder about that so called 'vitamin dependency' thing. Sounds like drug like effects not nutrient deficiency. Which is fine if you know you are using it that way.

Abram Hoffer has stated many times if his patients went off the niacin the problem came right back...doesn't that sound similar to what happens when someone goes off their medication? I've heard people rationalize this away claiming they have genetic defects that require the nutrient in large amounts. Yep sure mhm. I guess we can say the same thing about antihistamines "well I just have genetic problems with histamine therefore I need this drug to prevent allergies". I just don't want to live my life that way anymore as I feel pretty normal off the supplements so do I really have a genetic defect? No I think life just causes an accumulation of 'junk' so then we need supps/drugs to treat the junk circulating around all the time.

@luke hey thanks for replying!

I believed that chemicals no matter if they are synthetic or natural were exactly the same, but our body clearly reacts to synthetics much different. I brought up the choline thing because if you look at the negative reviews of choline bitartrate on amazon, over and over again you will see a similar pattern. People commenting that it smelled horrible and that it made them sick, a few went to the ER. Wikipedia stated it breaks down easily to trimethylamine, not exactly something that's healthy. This is why synthetics are inferior. They break down and are contaminated. You may be able to find a fresh batch, some commented they tried a different brand and found it didn't smell, but still it isn't a stable chemical, which necessitates buying fresh bottles so that you aren't consuming something that is putting a burden on your system.

I don't personally react that well to eggs either, but it could be the egg white, I have not tried just an egg yolk a day. I think most eggs are overloaded in toxic carotenoids due to the feed. So it's not the egg's fault. It's the feed.

Anyway, my point was that unless you have a documented deficiency I think supplements aren't extending people's lives. Grant got well by eating real food. I agree with him to be cautious about supplements, health isn't found in a capsule. I do think they can be good crutches, but no one ever said 'crutches made me healthy', they facilitated healing, but it wasn't the thing that cured them unless like I said there's a documented deficiency. Minerals can be a different story, we obviously need a certain amount of minerals. The copper, manganese, and boron are questionable. Manganese and copper toxicity is incredibly hard to treat, according to Chris Masterjohn you want 4 times the amount of iron as manganese always every single day otherwise instead of iron overload you get manganese overload and if you do have the genes for iron overload you may want to limit manganese to 2 mg a day. Boron seems estrogenic.

When I was researching thiamine I stumbled on a youtuber who claimed he nearly died from thiamine deficiency, a year later and he's still sick. Was it really a thiamine deficiency if he wasn't cured by thiamine? He goes over how he was starved and neglected as a child, sounds like that's the thing that ultimately made him sick later on (adverse childhood experiences are risk factors for severe illness in adults), not thiamine deficiency. When they discovered thiamine they could completely cure animals with it, it wasn't like a partial recovery, it was complete recovery. Chickens who were dying of beriberi completely cured rapidly. Same with any nutrient deficiency that I know of. But nowadays you have people claiming they need 3 grams niacin a day or 2,000 mg of thiamine hcl, or 10,000 grams of ascorbic acid a day. I do wonder about that so called 'vitamin dependency' thing. Sounds like drug like effects not nutrient deficiency. Which is fine if you know you are using it that way.

Abram Hoffer has stated many times if his patients went off the niacin the problem came right back...doesn't that sound similar to what happens when someone goes off their medication? I've heard people rationalize this away claiming they have genetic defects that require the nutrient in large amounts. Yep sure mhm. I guess we can say the same thing about antihistamines "well I just have genetic problems with histamine therefore I need this drug to prevent allergies". I just don't want to live my life that way anymore as I feel pretty normal off the supplements so do I really have a genetic defect? No I think life just causes an accumulation of 'junk' so then we need supps/drugs to treat the junk circulating around all the time.

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#35 · March 26, 2024, 9:01 am

@luke

Also, some of your supplements don't meet your third criteria in your natural law formula: "does supplementation at 10 times the RDA result in adverse effects, and is such heightened supplementation sustainable without negative consequences?"

Choline at 10 times the RDA would have adverse effects and is not sustainable. The upper limit for copper is 10 times the RDA so that also would become toxic and isn't sustainable. The upper limit for calcium is 2,500 mg so no 10 times the RDA would be very bad. Magnesium wouldn't be sustainable at 10 times either. Probably most minerals wouldn't be sustainable at 10 times the RDA. So were you making that claim only for vitamins? It doesn't seem to apply to minerals (or choline).

#36 · March 26, 2024, 11:30 am

@luke, thanks for the detailed response on both your perspective and your personal approach. I really enjoy hearing how others approach their low A lifestyle. I do believe at a point we all have to tailor things for our own particular goals, preferences and tolerances. Continuing to have discussions about all of this is very important imo.

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#37 · March 26, 2024, 2:40 pm

Quote from Janelle525 on March 26, 2024, 2:40 pm
Garrett said today on his livestream "there are supplement junkies and supplement graveyards.. supplement addiction is a huge thing, they can't stop, I've met people with 3 pages long of supps, they could be making you sicker and making you buy more supplements so just be careful".

The only ones I can vouch for are magnesium, the lotion got me out of TMJ hell, but ultimately was messing with my sleep instead of making it better, I was glad to not need it anymore, I do epsom salt baths now.

K2 occasional use.Seem to be very active biologically so larger amounts seem very unnatural.

Ascorbic acid in lower amounts is very safe, higher amounts watch for sluggish bile... increasing liver enzymes etc.. But always take breaks from every supplement. The body does develop dependencies.

Zinc in case of deficiency, but red meat should provide enough. If not consider copper toxicity! And also bad digestion, betaine hcl is needed for some people. Monitor urine pH too much acid could indicate lack of digestion of minerals. Too alkaline could indicate way too much calcium or dumping minerals from adrenaline which can be from blood sugar drops or stressful life.

Selenium if not eating wheat or nuts.

Activated charcoal for mopping up toxins.

Niacin seems to be (my theory) an antifungal. And need to research the pathways, Meri has info on that one, she doesn't recommend larger amounts at all.

I have thiamine hcl and will use it if I feel I need it, definitely don't ever want to die of beriberi, but I won't be using that like a drug.

And I do think trimethylglycine can help jump start detox.

Creatine seems okay.

Most people are slow oxidizers and probably don't need a bunch of calcium, but my mind is not made up on how much.

Potassium is fine I prefer bananas.

Salt obviously everyone needs supplemental salt.

Taurine is okay, but not everyday, could backfire eventually.

Glycine is fine.

Psyllium is fine.

I'd need to see strong strong evidence for using copper, manganese, boron, iodine-especially in large amounts, and choline bitartrate. I am undecided on ubiquinol, might be enough evidence for older people to use it. I am undecided on pectin as a supp. Melatonin... not sure on that one, wouldn't recommend it. And I have never researched glucuronolactone.

Garrett said today on his livestream "there are supplement junkies and supplement graveyards.. supplement addiction is a huge thing, they can't stop, I've met people with 3 pages long of supps, they could be making you sicker and making you buy more supplements so just be careful".

The only ones I can vouch for are magnesium, the lotion got me out of TMJ hell, but ultimately was messing with my sleep instead of making it better, I was glad to not need it anymore, I do epsom salt baths now.

K2 occasional use.Seem to be very active biologically so larger amounts seem very unnatural.

Ascorbic acid in lower amounts is very safe, higher amounts watch for sluggish bile... increasing liver enzymes etc.. But always take breaks from every supplement. The body does develop dependencies.

Zinc in case of deficiency, but red meat should provide enough. If not consider copper toxicity! And also bad digestion, betaine hcl is needed for some people. Monitor urine pH too much acid could indicate lack of digestion of minerals. Too alkaline could indicate way too much calcium or dumping minerals from adrenaline which can be from blood sugar drops or stressful life.

Selenium if not eating wheat or nuts.

Activated charcoal for mopping up toxins.

Niacin seems to be (my theory) an antifungal. And need to research the pathways, Meri has info on that one, she doesn't recommend larger amounts at all.

I have thiamine hcl and will use it if I feel I need it, definitely don't ever want to die of beriberi, but I won't be using that like a drug.

And I do think trimethylglycine can help jump start detox.

Creatine seems okay.

Most people are slow oxidizers and probably don't need a bunch of calcium, but my mind is not made up on how much.

Potassium is fine I prefer bananas.

Salt obviously everyone needs supplemental salt.

Taurine is okay, but not everyday, could backfire eventually.

Glycine is fine.

Psyllium is fine.

I'd need to see strong strong evidence for using copper, manganese, boron, iodine-especially in large amounts, and choline bitartrate. I am undecided on ubiquinol, might be enough evidence for older people to use it. I am undecided on pectin as a supp. Melatonin... not sure on that one, wouldn't recommend it. And I have never researched glucuronolactone.

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#38 · March 26, 2024, 3:03 pm

@janelle525, I quit salt in 2022 and feel a lot better for it tbh. It’s strange I realize coming from a peat perspective but it just seemed the more salt I used the more imbalanced I became. It never dawned on me that salt could be making things worse for me. Now I leave it to my body to regulate electrolytes that come from the food I eat and it works beautifully.

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#39 · March 27, 2024, 12:01 am

Quote from Bella on March 26, 2024, 3:03 pm

@janelle525, I quit salt in 2022 and feel a lot better for it tbh. It’s strange I realize coming from a peat perspective but it just seemed the more salt I used the more imbalanced I became. It never dawned on me that salt could be making things worse for me. Now I leave it to my body to regulate electrolytes that come from the food I eat and it works beautifully.

Interesting.

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#40 · March 27, 2024, 3:51 am

@inger, many people get extremely emotional when I mention this so I don’t talk about it much. I had mild hyponatremia on blood work and low blood pressure issues (75/55) from late 2021 through the spring of 2022 post vax shedding exposures and was trying to fix these issues with more salt to no avail.

I’ve gradually had to make an about face on all my sacred cow health beliefs since 2017 so I’m amazed at the confidence many people have on their stances. I’ve been humbled repeatedly by realizing how wrong I’ve been over and over.

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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

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