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DiscussionLet's talk about it: The science of itAll Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: …

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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

#71 · April 3, 2024, 8:35 am

Quote from Leo on April 3, 2024, 6:27 am

@luke Is it possible to write to you privately?

Hey Leo @leo

My website is https://arcsapien.substack.com

Over the last half-year, I've been fully immersed in writing a book, leaving little room for public visibility or updates on my website (my website is in the process of being completely revamped and restructured). The past few years have been quite a whirlwind, which is why I've been absent from this forum for so long. With roughly three months left until the book's completion, I'm eager to reintegrate into the public sphere with a robust visibility plan, encompassing podcasts, live appearances, and more. As I near the book's finalization, I aim to repurpose its content into website articles, aiming to release 2-3 articles weekly. I am beginning to do that this week. I'm super excited and proud to share what I've been working on for years now.

You can also reach me via email at luke@arcsapien.com, and we can determine the most suitable communication method from there!

Arios has reacted to this post.

#72 · April 3, 2024, 9:40 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Yep you beat me to it I was going to the exact same thing when I had some time reply; the only person writing word salads here is @luke. Eg: Writing these long intricate posts that really don't make much sense at all but at the same time gives the impression to the average reader that you know what you're speaking about due to the writing style.

tim and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#73 · April 3, 2024, 9:53 am

Quote from Luke on April 3, 2024, 9:53 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Hey Jessica @Jessica2

It appears there may have been a misunderstanding. My extensive commentary focused on mechanistic, in vitro, and theoretical models. In summary, I advocate for approaching mechanistic studies with extreme skepticism, although depending on the context, they may still offer some value. Studies conducted on living organisms are generally more useful, yet their reliability can also be compromised depending on the methodology employed.

Today, many individuals opt for the "methyl folate" form over folic acid, believing it to be safer due to its role as a methyl donor, support for methylation, detoxification, and its perceived benefit for people with the MTHFR mutation, which may affect around 50% of the population. Before hastily attributing all negative effects to folic acid alone, it's crucial to thoroughly examine the studies (below and many more on PubMed). Many of these studies, whether epidemiological or survey-based, investigate all forms of folate, not solely folic acid. Moreover, they frequently overlook distinguishing between the different forms, rendering it inaccurate to solely blame folic acid for the effects and leaving us somewhat in the dark. The assertion that we require folate solely for methylation is inaccurate, given that there are at least 9 other substances that contribute to the methylation process.

A statement from Chris Masterjohn, who is heading in the right direction but hasn't quite reached the destination:

“Think how different this is than trying to make up for low MTHFR activity by taking extra methylfolate. One methylfolate molecule goes into your body, stays inside your cells for 200 days, and every day has 18,000 methyl groups added to it using MTHFR. If you have a 75% decrease in that, you’re losing 13,500 of those recycling events. You can’t take 13,500 times the normal dose of methylfolate. I have no idea what it would do but I know it’s not safe. Methylfolate is one of the primary normal food forms of folate, and I think it’s great. You need to get enough folate, so getting normal, reasonable doses of methylfolate into your diet makes complete sense. But adding more to make up for low MTHFR activity is ludicrous.”

The notion of "over methylators" and "under methylators" is pseudoscience, partly perpetuated by health influencers seeking to sell products and promote an ideology suggesting they have a unique solution to ongoing issues. Nonetheless, various toxins, such as folate, can indeed disrupt methylation function.

All types of folate display neurotoxic effects at doses ranging from 300 mcg to 1000 mcg, or 1 mg—the smallest limit on nearly any supplement. This isn't a controversial viewpoint; it essentially aligns with the opinion of mainstream medicine.

Here are some intriguing studies and quotes for you to explore. These are among the most prominent folate studies in the field of allopathic medicine. I'm interested to hear which parts inspire you to supplement folate. I look forward to your response with citations.

“The risk of toxicity from folic acid is low because folate is a water-soluble vitamin and is regularly removed from the body through urine.” Vs. “The EFSA reviewed the safety question and agreed with United States that the UL be set at 1,000 μg.[96]” Despite being water-soluble, the risk of toxicity is low, yet the upper limit is a mere 1000 mcg (1 mg), the smallest limit for any vitamin.

Effect of maternal high dosages of folic acid supplements on neurocognitive development in children at 4-5 y of age: the prospective birth cohort Infancia y Medio Ambiente (INMA) study — 2017

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28724645/

Folate causes irreversible nerve damage and “cognitive symptoms”. 8 studies cited by the NIH (US government):

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/

Johnson MA. If high folic acid aggravates vitamin B12 deficiency what should be done about it? Nutr Rev 2007;65:451-8. [PubMed abstract]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17972439/

In vitamin B12 deficiency, higher serum folate is associated with increased total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid concentrations (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056804/

Cognitive impairment in older Americans in the age of folic acid fortification. (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17616791/

Folic acid fortification: the good, the bad, and the puzzle of vitamin B-12

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/85/1/3/4649440?login=false

“In 2005, an increased risk of cognitive decline was reported in elderly persons who took folic acid supplements in doses >400 μg/d.” (mcg/day)

Science-based micronutrient fortification: which nutrients, how much, and how to know?

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/2/279/4862901?login=false

“at the time the decision was made to mandate the addition of folic acid to enriched flour, no coherent plan to monitor the national and regional effect on neural tube defect births, to document actual changes in folate status, or to assess the possible occurrence of untoward effects on the population”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26862004/

“Between 1945 and 1959 it was convincingly documented that folic acid can precipitate or aggravate the neurological and haematological consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency by increasing the demand for vitamin B12. Since then there has been much misunderstanding of the issues, mainly by advocates of folic acid fortification who have been inclined to minimise or even dismiss the risks by misinterpreting the evidence as only a ‘masking’ of the anaemia of pernicious anaemia. Recent studies in the era of fortification are rediscovering the risks to the nervous system, especially cognitive function, of excess folate in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. I have reviewed the Reports of four Expert Advisory Committees in Europe and the USA, which suggest that the safe upper tolerable limit (UL) for folic acid is 1 mg in adults. These reports are unsound and there is already evidence of neurological harm from long-term exposure to doses of folic acid between 0.5 and 1 mg in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. There is an urgent need to review the safe UL for folic acid and to consider the addition of vitamin B12 to folic acid fortification policies.”

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h8

“In addition, intakes of 1,000 mcg per day or more of folic acid from supplements during the periconception period have been associated with lower scores on several tests of cognitive development in children at ages 4–5 years than in children of mothers who took 400 mcg to 999 mcg [153].”

“Since 1998, folic acid has been added to cold cereals, flour, breads, pasta, bakery items, cookies, and crackers, as required by federal law.”

Here, the CDC claims there are 1300 fewer neural tube defects each year. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/folicacid/features/folicacid-prevents-ntds.html

Here the CDC contradicts themselves :https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/increase-in-developmental-disabilities.html

Long-term use of folic acid dietary supplements in excess of 1,000 μg/day has been linked to an increase in prostate cancer risk.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19141696/

“We subsequently showed increases in circulating homocysteine and MMA concentrations with increasing serum folate among NHANES participants…”

Is High Folic Acid Intake a Risk Factor for Autism?—A Review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704156/

“This raises concerns about detrimental effects of high serum synthetic FA [30]. These include effects on the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase [23], regulation of folate uptake in renal and intestinal epithelia [31], reduced cytotoxicity of natural killer T cells in postmenopausal women [27], disregulation of gene expression in lymphoblastoid cells [32], and cytotoxicity to neural tissues and mental health (reviewed in [33,34]). In addition, evidence shows that high FA intake is associated with an increase in incidence of twin births, body fat mass and insulin resistance in offspring, increased risk of colorectal cancer, and other adverse outcomes (reviewed in [20]).”

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Hey Jessica @Jessica2

It appears there may have been a misunderstanding. My extensive commentary focused on mechanistic, in vitro, and theoretical models. In summary, I advocate for approaching mechanistic studies with extreme skepticism, although depending on the context, they may still offer some value. Studies conducted on living organisms are generally more useful, yet their reliability can also be compromised depending on the methodology employed.

Today, many individuals opt for the "methyl folate" form over folic acid, believing it to be safer due to its role as a methyl donor, support for methylation, detoxification, and its perceived benefit for people with the MTHFR mutation, which may affect around 50% of the population. Before hastily attributing all negative effects to folic acid alone, it's crucial to thoroughly examine the studies (below and many more on PubMed). Many of these studies, whether epidemiological or survey-based, investigate all forms of folate, not solely folic acid. Moreover, they frequently overlook distinguishing between the different forms, rendering it inaccurate to solely blame folic acid for the effects and leaving us somewhat in the dark. The assertion that we require folate solely for methylation is inaccurate, given that there are at least 9 other substances that contribute to the methylation process.

A statement from Chris Masterjohn, who is heading in the right direction but hasn't quite reached the destination:

“Think how different this is than trying to make up for low MTHFR activity by taking extra methylfolate. One methylfolate molecule goes into your body, stays inside your cells for 200 days, and every day has 18,000 methyl groups added to it using MTHFR. If you have a 75% decrease in that, you’re losing 13,500 of those recycling events. You can’t take 13,500 times the normal dose of methylfolate. I have no idea what it would do but I know it’s not safe. Methylfolate is one of the primary normal food forms of folate, and I think it’s great. You need to get enough folate, so getting normal, reasonable doses of methylfolate into your diet makes complete sense. But adding more to make up for low MTHFR activity is ludicrous.”

The notion of "over methylators" and "under methylators" is pseudoscience, partly perpetuated by health influencers seeking to sell products and promote an ideology suggesting they have a unique solution to ongoing issues. Nonetheless, various toxins, such as folate, can indeed disrupt methylation function.

All types of folate display neurotoxic effects at doses ranging from 300 mcg to 1000 mcg, or 1 mg—the smallest limit on nearly any supplement. This isn't a controversial viewpoint; it essentially aligns with the opinion of mainstream medicine.

Here are some intriguing studies and quotes for you to explore. These are among the most prominent folate studies in the field of allopathic medicine. I'm interested to hear which parts inspire you to supplement folate. I look forward to your response with citations.

“The risk of toxicity from folic acid is low because folate is a water-soluble vitamin and is regularly removed from the body through urine.” Vs. “The EFSA reviewed the safety question and agreed with United States that the UL be set at 1,000 μg.[96]” Despite being water-soluble, the risk of toxicity is low, yet the upper limit is a mere 1000 mcg (1 mg), the smallest limit for any vitamin.
Effect of maternal high dosages of folic acid supplements on neurocognitive development in children at 4-5 y of age: the prospective birth cohort Infancia y Medio Ambiente (INMA) study — 2017
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28724645/
Folate causes irreversible nerve damage and “cognitive symptoms”. 8 studies cited by the NIH (US government):
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/
Johnson MA. If high folic acid aggravates vitamin B12 deficiency what should be done about it? Nutr Rev 2007;65:451-8. [PubMed abstract]
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17972439/
In vitamin B12 deficiency, higher serum folate is associated with increased total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid concentrations (2007)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056804/
Cognitive impairment in older Americans in the age of folic acid fortification. (2007)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17616791/
Folic acid fortification: the good, the bad, and the puzzle of vitamin B-12
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/85/1/3/4649440?login=false
“In 2005, an increased risk of cognitive decline was reported in elderly persons who took folic acid supplements in doses >400 μg/d.” (mcg/day)
Science-based micronutrient fortification: which nutrients, how much, and how to know?
https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/2/279/4862901?login=false
“at the time the decision was made to mandate the addition of folic acid to enriched flour, no coherent plan to monitor the national and regional effect on neural tube defect births, to document actual changes in folate status, or to assess the possible occurrence of untoward effects on the population”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26862004/
“Between 1945 and 1959 it was convincingly documented that folic acid can precipitate or aggravate the neurological and haematological consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency by increasing the demand for vitamin B12. Since then there has been much misunderstanding of the issues, mainly by advocates of folic acid fortification who have been inclined to minimise or even dismiss the risks by misinterpreting the evidence as only a ‘masking’ of the anaemia of pernicious anaemia. Recent studies in the era of fortification are rediscovering the risks to the nervous system, especially cognitive function, of excess folate in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. I have reviewed the Reports of four Expert Advisory Committees in Europe and the USA, which suggest that the safe upper tolerable limit (UL) for folic acid is 1 mg in adults. These reports are unsound and there is already evidence of neurological harm from long-term exposure to doses of folic acid between 0.5 and 1 mg in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. There is an urgent need to review the safe UL for folic acid and to consider the addition of vitamin B12 to folic acid fortification policies.”
https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h8
“In addition, intakes of 1,000 mcg per day or more of folic acid from supplements during the periconception period have been associated with lower scores on several tests of cognitive development in children at ages 4–5 years than in children of mothers who took 400 mcg to 999 mcg [153].”
“Since 1998, folic acid has been added to cold cereals, flour, breads, pasta, bakery items, cookies, and crackers, as required by federal law.”
Here, the CDC claims there are 1300 fewer neural tube defects each year. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/folicacid/features/folicacid-prevents-ntds.html
Here the CDC contradicts themselves :https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/increase-in-developmental-disabilities.html
Long-term use of folic acid dietary supplements in excess of 1,000 μg/day has been linked to an increase in prostate cancer risk.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19141696/
“We subsequently showed increases in circulating homocysteine and MMA concentrations with increasing serum folate among NHANES participants…”
Is High Folic Acid Intake a Risk Factor for Autism?—A Review
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704156/
“This raises concerns about detrimental effects of high serum synthetic FA [30]. These include effects on the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase [23], regulation of folate uptake in renal and intestinal epithelia [31], reduced cytotoxicity of natural killer T cells in postmenopausal women [27], disregulation of gene expression in lymphoblastoid cells [32], and cytotoxicity to neural tissues and mental health (reviewed in [33,34]). In addition, evidence shows that high FA intake is associated with an increase in incidence of twin births, body fat mass and insulin resistance in offspring, increased risk of colorectal cancer, and other adverse outcomes (reviewed in [20]).”

Arios, Janelle525 and 2 other users have reacted to this post.

#74 · April 3, 2024, 9:58 am

Quote from AlexM on April 3, 2024, 9:40 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Yep you beat me to it I was going to the exact same thing when I had some time reply; the only person writing word salads here is @luke. Eg: Writing these long intricate posts that really don't make much sense at all but at the same time gives the impression to the average reader that you know what you're speaking about due to the writing style.

@alexm

I urge you to engage in critical examination of my response, breaking it down point by point. By doing so, we can collectively pursue truth and explore the benefits that arise from engaging in constructive dialogue. Your perspective on why you believe I am mistaken is valuable and welcomed.

Arios has reacted to this post.

#75 · April 3, 2024, 10:20 am

Quote from Alex on April 3, 2024, 10:20 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 3, 2024, 7:44 am

Quote from Luke on April 2, 2024, 7:51 pm

If the metabolic and enzyme pathways of "Vitamin A" were genuinely undeniable facts, you would have no motive to participate in this forum, and certainly, you wouldn't subscribe to the belief that it is toxic. It's evident that you don't consider these Vitamin A pathways to be factual; otherwise, you wouldn't be present here.

I'm not sure, but doesn't seem like he believes vitamin A is toxic as he is taking a parapack supplement:

Vitamin A (as palmitate and 50% as beta carotene) 2000 IU
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 60 mg
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 30 IU
Thiamine (as thiamine hydrochloride) 1.5 mg
Niacin (as niacinamide and 33% as niacin) 20 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2 mg
Folic Acid (as (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid) 25 mcg
Biotin 75 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 10 mg
Iodine (from kelp) 100 mcg
Zinc (TRAACS® zinc bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 20 mcg
Manganese (TRAACS® manganese bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Potassium (from potassium gluconate and 50% as potassium glycinate complex) 10 mg
Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex (citrus aurantium L.) 50mg
Inositol 25 mg
Betaine (from betaine hydrochloride) 20 mg
L-Tyrosine 10 mg
L-lysine HCL 10 mg
L-Glutamic Acid 10 mg
L-Serine 5 mg
Pyruvate (from calcium pyruvate) 5 mg *
Whole Adrenal Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Pituitary Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Parotid Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *

@janelle525 I can speak for myself? Not really necessary to make these kind of comments. And you have a habit of doing stuff like this such as when you tweeted GS about something Jessica said.

Its like me saying oh and @janelle525 eats Ice Cream regularly which you do.

Every time I have gone through phases of eating lots of ice cream my health slowly declines. Where as with taking the Para Pack and the other mineral balancing supplements I have only seen improvements. So go figure..

It was actually a binge of ice cream eating 2 weeks ago ( I was eating two tubs a day for a few days), which felt great at the time until I had numbness and tingling in my legs by the end of it and felt lower metabolism from all the constant blood sugar spikes which prompted me to do that prolonged water fast that I found helpful.

So yeah rather than always bringing up I take a TEI supplement that has Vitamin A every time on here like its terrible, maybe try TEIs programme for 3 months yourself first and I can bet you it will improve your health compared to what you're doing now with the ice cream and stuff.

Quote from Janelle525 on April 3, 2024, 7:44 am

Quote from Luke on April 2, 2024, 7:51 pm

If the metabolic and enzyme pathways of "Vitamin A" were genuinely undeniable facts, you would have no motive to participate in this forum, and certainly, you wouldn't subscribe to the belief that it is toxic. It's evident that you don't consider these Vitamin A pathways to be factual; otherwise, you wouldn't be present here.

I'm not sure, but doesn't seem like he believes vitamin A is toxic as he is taking a parapack supplement:

Vitamin A (as palmitate and 50% as beta carotene) 2000 IU
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 60 mg
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 30 IU
Thiamine (as thiamine hydrochloride) 1.5 mg
Niacin (as niacinamide and 33% as niacin) 20 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2 mg
Folic Acid (as (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid) 25 mcg
Biotin 75 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 10 mg
Iodine (from kelp) 100 mcg
Zinc (TRAACS® zinc bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 20 mcg
Manganese (TRAACS® manganese bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Potassium (from potassium gluconate and 50% as potassium glycinate complex) 10 mg
Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex (citrus aurantium L.) 50mg
Inositol 25 mg
Betaine (from betaine hydrochloride) 20 mg
L-Tyrosine 10 mg
L-lysine HCL 10 mg
L-Glutamic Acid 10 mg
L-Serine 5 mg
Pyruvate (from calcium pyruvate) 5 mg *
Whole Adrenal Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Pituitary Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Parotid Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *

@janelle525 I can speak for myself? Not really necessary to make these kind of comments. And you have a habit of doing stuff like this such as when you tweeted GS about something Jessica said.

Its like me saying oh and @janelle525 eats Ice Cream regularly which you do.

Every time I have gone through phases of eating lots of ice cream my health slowly declines. Where as with taking the Para Pack and the other mineral balancing supplements I have only seen improvements. So go figure..

It was actually a binge of ice cream eating 2 weeks ago ( I was eating two tubs a day for a few days), which felt great at the time until I had numbness and tingling in my legs by the end of it and felt lower metabolism from all the constant blood sugar spikes which prompted me to do that prolonged water fast that I found helpful.

So yeah rather than always bringing up I take a TEI supplement that has Vitamin A every time on here like its terrible, maybe try TEIs programme for 3 months yourself first and I can bet you it will improve your health compared to what you're doing now with the ice cream and stuff.

Deleted user has reacted to this post.

#76 · April 3, 2024, 10:25 am

Quote from Luke on April 3, 2024, 9:58 am

Quote from AlexM on April 3, 2024, 9:40 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Yep you beat me to it I was going to the exact same thing when I had some time reply; the only person writing word salads here is @luke. Eg: Writing these long intricate posts that really don't make much sense at all but at the same time gives the impression to the average reader that you know what you're speaking about due to the writing style.

@alexm

I urge you to engage in critical examination of my response, breaking it down point by point. By doing so, we can collectively pursue truth and explore the benefits that arise from engaging in constructive dialogue. Your perspective on why you believe I am mistaken is valuable and welcomed.

@luke I would but looks like Tim already did it for me. You're on a whole other level to me dude good luck..

tim and Deleted user have reacted to this post.

#77 · April 3, 2024, 10:42 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 10:35 am

@luke it seems you don't understand the idea that supplementing with folate cures megaloblastic anemia but not b12 deficiency induced nerve damage. The upper limit is set very low to prevent the masking of anemia and nerve damage due to b12 deficiency.

From just one of the studies you cited:

"Women with insufficient folate intakes are at increased risk of giving birth to infants with NTDs [2]. Inadequate maternal folate status has also been associated with low infant birth weight, preterm delivery, and fetal growth retardation [1,33]."

I will add more.

@jessica2

*face palm*

Your response indicates that you haven't thoroughly reviewed the listed studies. Particularly concerning your comments on megaloblastic anemia, it appears you're only skimming titles and not delving into the literature comprehensively. Such dismissive responses are not worth my time, and the responsibility to provide a summary of 10+ folate studies does not fall on me.

Arios has reacted to this post.

#78 · April 3, 2024, 10:49 am

Quote from Alex on April 3, 2024, 10:49 am

Quote from Luke on April 3, 2024, 9:53 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Hey Jessica @Jessica2

It appears there may have been a misunderstanding. My extensive commentary focused on mechanistic, in vitro, and theoretical models. In summary, I advocate for approaching mechanistic studies with extreme skepticism, although depending on the context, they may still offer some value. Studies conducted on living organisms are generally more useful, yet their reliability can also be compromised depending on the methodology employed.

Today, many individuals opt for the "methyl folate" form over folic acid, believing it to be safer due to its role as a methyl donor, support for methylation, detoxification, and its perceived benefit for people with the MTHFR mutation, which may affect around 50% of the population. Before hastily attributing all negative effects to folic acid alone, it's crucial to thoroughly examine the studies (below and many more on PubMed). Many of these studies, whether epidemiological or survey-based, investigate all forms of folate, not solely folic acid. Moreover, they frequently overlook distinguishing between the different forms, rendering it inaccurate to solely blame folic acid for the effects and leaving us somewhat in the dark. The assertion that we require folate solely for methylation is inaccurate, given that there are at least 9 other substances that contribute to the methylation process.

A statement from Chris Masterjohn, who is heading in the right direction but hasn't quite reached the destination:

“Think how different this is than trying to make up for low MTHFR activity by taking extra methylfolate. One methylfolate molecule goes into your body, stays inside your cells for 200 days, and every day has 18,000 methyl groups added to it using MTHFR. If you have a 75% decrease in that, you’re losing 13,500 of those recycling events. You can’t take 13,500 times the normal dose of methylfolate. I have no idea what it would do but I know it’s not safe. Methylfolate is one of the primary normal food forms of folate, and I think it’s great. You need to get enough folate, so getting normal, reasonable doses of methylfolate into your diet makes complete sense. But adding more to make up for low MTHFR activity is ludicrous.”

The notion of "over methylators" and "under methylators" is pseudoscience, partly perpetuated by health influencers seeking to sell products and promote an ideology suggesting they have a unique solution to ongoing issues. Nonetheless, various toxins, such as folate, can indeed disrupt methylation function.

All types of folate display neurotoxic effects at doses ranging from 300 mcg to 1000 mcg, or 1 mg—the smallest limit on nearly any supplement. This isn't a controversial viewpoint; it essentially aligns with the opinion of mainstream medicine.

Here are some intriguing studies and quotes for you to explore. These are among the most prominent folate studies in the field of allopathic medicine. I'm interested to hear which parts inspire you to supplement folate. I look forward to your response with citations.

“The risk of toxicity from folic acid is low because folate is a water-soluble vitamin and is regularly removed from the body through urine.” Vs. “The EFSA reviewed the safety question and agreed with United States that the UL be set at 1,000 μg.[96]” Despite being water-soluble, the risk of toxicity is low, yet the upper limit is a mere 1000 mcg (1 mg), the smallest limit for any vitamin.

Effect of maternal high dosages of folic acid supplements on neurocognitive development in children at 4-5 y of age: the prospective birth cohort Infancia y Medio Ambiente (INMA) study — 2017

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28724645/

Folate causes irreversible nerve damage and “cognitive symptoms”. 8 studies cited by the NIH (US government):

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/

Johnson MA. If high folic acid aggravates vitamin B12 deficiency what should be done about it? Nutr Rev 2007;65:451-8. [PubMed abstract]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17972439/

In vitamin B12 deficiency, higher serum folate is associated with increased total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid concentrations (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056804/

Cognitive impairment in older Americans in the age of folic acid fortification. (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17616791/

Folic acid fortification: the good, the bad, and the puzzle of vitamin B-12

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/85/1/3/4649440?login=false

“In 2005, an increased risk of cognitive decline was reported in elderly persons who took folic acid supplements in doses >400 μg/d.” (mcg/day)

Science-based micronutrient fortification: which nutrients, how much, and how to know?

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/2/279/4862901?login=false

“at the time the decision was made to mandate the addition of folic acid to enriched flour, no coherent plan to monitor the national and regional effect on neural tube defect births, to document actual changes in folate status, or to assess the possible occurrence of untoward effects on the population”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26862004/

“Between 1945 and 1959 it was convincingly documented that folic acid can precipitate or aggravate the neurological and haematological consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency by increasing the demand for vitamin B12. Since then there has been much misunderstanding of the issues, mainly by advocates of folic acid fortification who have been inclined to minimise or even dismiss the risks by misinterpreting the evidence as only a ‘masking’ of the anaemia of pernicious anaemia. Recent studies in the era of fortification are rediscovering the risks to the nervous system, especially cognitive function, of excess folate in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. I have reviewed the Reports of four Expert Advisory Committees in Europe and the USA, which suggest that the safe upper tolerable limit (UL) for folic acid is 1 mg in adults. These reports are unsound and there is already evidence of neurological harm from long-term exposure to doses of folic acid between 0.5 and 1 mg in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. There is an urgent need to review the safe UL for folic acid and to consider the addition of vitamin B12 to folic acid fortification policies.”

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h8

“In addition, intakes of 1,000 mcg per day or more of folic acid from supplements during the periconception period have been associated with lower scores on several tests of cognitive development in children at ages 4–5 years than in children of mothers who took 400 mcg to 999 mcg [153].”

“Since 1998, folic acid has been added to cold cereals, flour, breads, pasta, bakery items, cookies, and crackers, as required by federal law.”

Here, the CDC claims there are 1300 fewer neural tube defects each year. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/folicacid/features/folicacid-prevents-ntds.html

Here the CDC contradicts themselves :https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/increase-in-developmental-disabilities.html

Long-term use of folic acid dietary supplements in excess of 1,000 μg/day has been linked to an increase in prostate cancer risk.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19141696/

“We subsequently showed increases in circulating homocysteine and MMA concentrations with increasing serum folate among NHANES participants…”

Is High Folic Acid Intake a Risk Factor for Autism?—A Review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704156/

“This raises concerns about detrimental effects of high serum synthetic FA [30]. These include effects on the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase [23], regulation of folate uptake in renal and intestinal epithelia [31], reduced cytotoxicity of natural killer T cells in postmenopausal women [27], disregulation of gene expression in lymphoblastoid cells [32], and cytotoxicity to neural tissues and mental health (reviewed in [33,34]). In addition, evidence shows that high FA intake is associated with an increase in incidence of twin births, body fat mass and insulin resistance in offspring, increased risk of colorectal cancer, and other adverse outcomes (reviewed in [20]).”

Also from Chris Masterjohn:

# PHASE 6 - Folate intake

* It is important to keep in mind that we are not trying to 'fix' MTHFR by taking folate.
* Why do we need folate?
* To supply folate for methylfolate production for the remethylation of homocysteine. Although the methylfolate production by MTHFR is diminished, it is not zero.
* To supply folate for methylfolate production to turn off the methyl buffer system. There are several control signals between the folate cycle and the methionine cycle to maintain proper methylation levels. This is one of those control signals.
* The folate cycle is involved in DNA repair and replication.
* The folate cycle participates in the biopterin cycle.
* The folate cycle performs the interconversion of serine and glycine.
* When to supplement folate?
* You are folate-deficient (per blood test).
* You were recently folate-deficient, and are still repleting your folate stores. This repletion may take several months, up to a year.
* Your diet is folate-deficient.
* You have folate absorption issues.
* Increase folate intake from food. This [NIH folate list](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h3) may be helpful.
* Methylfolate supplements are a double-edged sword: while methylfolate is a readily usable natural form, it is a methyl donor and so may cause sudden changes in methylation which can result in side effects ranging from symptoms such as irritability, anxiety, headaches, fatigue to depression, depersonalization/derealization, and more. Yet, if side effects are minimized by careful dosing, that boost in methyl groups can create a sense of cognitive and mood improvement, at least in the initial weeks or months of the protocol.
* Methylfolate Dosing:
* Sublingual, or liquid drops, is the preferred supplement form. Sublinguals can easily be broken apart into 1/4 or 1/8 pieces to allow starting with small doses. For even smaller starting doses, liquid drops may be better.
* Typical sublingual methylfolate are 1000mcg. So, a 1/8 size piece (barely a crumb) is 125mcg.
* Sensitive people: Start with 125mcg once/day and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to twice per day. Increase next to 250mg twice per day, and so on.
* Very sensitive people: If even small amounts of methylfolate are causing issues and food folate is not enough, consider using the folinic acid form of folate. This is an unmethylated folate, also available as a sublingual. Follow the same incremental process above, starting at 125mcg.
* Very, very sensitive people: Use low-dosage liquid methylfolate and dissolve 1 drop in 10 equivalent drops of an oil (e.g., olive oil); this dilutes the folate drop by 10x. Then take just a drop of that diluted folate. Incrementally work your way up over time. See [this video segment](https://youtu.be/GT27aTx3A70?t=836).
* Less sensitive people: Start with 1/4 sublingual (250mcg) once/day at a meal and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to 250mcg twice per day at meals. Increase next to either 500mcg twice/day at meals or 250mcg 3 times/day at meals.
* Final dosage goal: This is highly individual. Some people may find that 500mcg (1/2 sublingual) per day suffices, some may find that 1000mcg or more is beneficial, and as noted earlier, some may find food folate alone sufficient. You need to monitor your own wellbeing and health to determine what is right for you.
* Folinic acid supplements are another natural usable folate form; however, folinic acid is not methylated, and still needs to be processed through MTHFR to become methylfolate. These factors make folinic acid much less likely to cause side effects compared to methylfolate.
* Folinic acid may not be advisable if you have significant slowdown of the MTHFS gene.
* Folinic acid dosing:
* Sublingual is the preferred supplement form. Sublinguals can easily be broken apart into 1/4 or 1/8 pieces to allow starting with small doses. For even smaller starting doses, liquid drops may be better.
* Typical sublingual folinic acid are 1000mcg. So, a 1/8 size piece (barely a crumb) is 125mcg.
* Sensitive people: Start with 125mcg once/day and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to twice per day. Increase next to 250mg twice per day, and so on.

Quote from Luke on April 3, 2024, 9:53 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 8:54 am

@luke Sorry but you're criticizing alex for his "word salad", then you post some eruditic treatise that is a word salad itself?

At least Alex's post made sense. Please prove to me folate is toxic. Anyone. Don't bother also posting studies since we've determined that science and studies are worthless. Lol.

I'm supposed to believe it's toxic because it just sounds like its probably toxic due to general internet chatter? How is this method of information gathering superior to an AI aggregator? "I've heard general things online from people saying its toxic, therefore it probably is." Come on, make some sense here people.

Hey Jessica @Jessica2

It appears there may have been a misunderstanding. My extensive commentary focused on mechanistic, in vitro, and theoretical models. In summary, I advocate for approaching mechanistic studies with extreme skepticism, although depending on the context, they may still offer some value. Studies conducted on living organisms are generally more useful, yet their reliability can also be compromised depending on the methodology employed.

Today, many individuals opt for the "methyl folate" form over folic acid, believing it to be safer due to its role as a methyl donor, support for methylation, detoxification, and its perceived benefit for people with the MTHFR mutation, which may affect around 50% of the population. Before hastily attributing all negative effects to folic acid alone, it's crucial to thoroughly examine the studies (below and many more on PubMed). Many of these studies, whether epidemiological or survey-based, investigate all forms of folate, not solely folic acid. Moreover, they frequently overlook distinguishing between the different forms, rendering it inaccurate to solely blame folic acid for the effects and leaving us somewhat in the dark. The assertion that we require folate solely for methylation is inaccurate, given that there are at least 9 other substances that contribute to the methylation process.

A statement from Chris Masterjohn, who is heading in the right direction but hasn't quite reached the destination:

“Think how different this is than trying to make up for low MTHFR activity by taking extra methylfolate. One methylfolate molecule goes into your body, stays inside your cells for 200 days, and every day has 18,000 methyl groups added to it using MTHFR. If you have a 75% decrease in that, you’re losing 13,500 of those recycling events. You can’t take 13,500 times the normal dose of methylfolate. I have no idea what it would do but I know it’s not safe. Methylfolate is one of the primary normal food forms of folate, and I think it’s great. You need to get enough folate, so getting normal, reasonable doses of methylfolate into your diet makes complete sense. But adding more to make up for low MTHFR activity is ludicrous.”

The notion of "over methylators" and "under methylators" is pseudoscience, partly perpetuated by health influencers seeking to sell products and promote an ideology suggesting they have a unique solution to ongoing issues. Nonetheless, various toxins, such as folate, can indeed disrupt methylation function.

All types of folate display neurotoxic effects at doses ranging from 300 mcg to 1000 mcg, or 1 mg—the smallest limit on nearly any supplement. This isn't a controversial viewpoint; it essentially aligns with the opinion of mainstream medicine.

Here are some intriguing studies and quotes for you to explore. These are among the most prominent folate studies in the field of allopathic medicine. I'm interested to hear which parts inspire you to supplement folate. I look forward to your response with citations.

“The risk of toxicity from folic acid is low because folate is a water-soluble vitamin and is regularly removed from the body through urine.” Vs. “The EFSA reviewed the safety question and agreed with United States that the UL be set at 1,000 μg.[96]” Despite being water-soluble, the risk of toxicity is low, yet the upper limit is a mere 1000 mcg (1 mg), the smallest limit for any vitamin.

Effect of maternal high dosages of folic acid supplements on neurocognitive development in children at 4-5 y of age: the prospective birth cohort Infancia y Medio Ambiente (INMA) study — 2017

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28724645/

Folate causes irreversible nerve damage and “cognitive symptoms”. 8 studies cited by the NIH (US government):

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/

Johnson MA. If high folic acid aggravates vitamin B12 deficiency what should be done about it? Nutr Rev 2007;65:451-8. [PubMed abstract]

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17972439/

In vitamin B12 deficiency, higher serum folate is associated with increased total homocysteine and methylmalonic acid concentrations (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18056804/

Cognitive impairment in older Americans in the age of folic acid fortification. (2007)

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17616791/

Folic acid fortification: the good, the bad, and the puzzle of vitamin B-12

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/85/1/3/4649440?login=false

“In 2005, an increased risk of cognitive decline was reported in elderly persons who took folic acid supplements in doses >400 μg/d.” (mcg/day)

Science-based micronutrient fortification: which nutrients, how much, and how to know?

https://academic.oup.com/ajcn/article/82/2/279/4862901?login=false

“at the time the decision was made to mandate the addition of folic acid to enriched flour, no coherent plan to monitor the national and regional effect on neural tube defect births, to document actual changes in folate status, or to assess the possible occurrence of untoward effects on the population”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26862004/

“Between 1945 and 1959 it was convincingly documented that folic acid can precipitate or aggravate the neurological and haematological consequences of vitamin B12 deficiency by increasing the demand for vitamin B12. Since then there has been much misunderstanding of the issues, mainly by advocates of folic acid fortification who have been inclined to minimise or even dismiss the risks by misinterpreting the evidence as only a ‘masking’ of the anaemia of pernicious anaemia. Recent studies in the era of fortification are rediscovering the risks to the nervous system, especially cognitive function, of excess folate in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. I have reviewed the Reports of four Expert Advisory Committees in Europe and the USA, which suggest that the safe upper tolerable limit (UL) for folic acid is 1 mg in adults. These reports are unsound and there is already evidence of neurological harm from long-term exposure to doses of folic acid between 0.5 and 1 mg in the presence of vitamin B12 deficiency. There is an urgent need to review the safe UL for folic acid and to consider the addition of vitamin B12 to folic acid fortification policies.”

https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h8

“In addition, intakes of 1,000 mcg per day or more of folic acid from supplements during the periconception period have been associated with lower scores on several tests of cognitive development in children at ages 4–5 years than in children of mothers who took 400 mcg to 999 mcg [153].”

“Since 1998, folic acid has been added to cold cereals, flour, breads, pasta, bakery items, cookies, and crackers, as required by federal law.”

Here, the CDC claims there are 1300 fewer neural tube defects each year. https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/folicacid/features/folicacid-prevents-ntds.html

Here the CDC contradicts themselves :https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/developmentaldisabilities/features/increase-in-developmental-disabilities.html

Long-term use of folic acid dietary supplements in excess of 1,000 μg/day has been linked to an increase in prostate cancer risk.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19141696/

“We subsequently showed increases in circulating homocysteine and MMA concentrations with increasing serum folate among NHANES participants…”

Is High Folic Acid Intake a Risk Factor for Autism?—A Review

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5704156/

“This raises concerns about detrimental effects of high serum synthetic FA [30]. These include effects on the enzyme dihydrofolate reductase [23], regulation of folate uptake in renal and intestinal epithelia [31], reduced cytotoxicity of natural killer T cells in postmenopausal women [27], disregulation of gene expression in lymphoblastoid cells [32], and cytotoxicity to neural tissues and mental health (reviewed in [33,34]). In addition, evidence shows that high FA intake is associated with an increase in incidence of twin births, body fat mass and insulin resistance in offspring, increased risk of colorectal cancer, and other adverse outcomes (reviewed in [20]).”

Also from Chris Masterjohn:

# PHASE 6 - Folate intake

* It is important to keep in mind that we are not trying to 'fix' MTHFR by taking folate.
* Why do we need folate?
* To supply folate for methylfolate production for the remethylation of homocysteine. Although the methylfolate production by MTHFR is diminished, it is not zero.
* To supply folate for methylfolate production to turn off the methyl buffer system. There are several control signals between the folate cycle and the methionine cycle to maintain proper methylation levels. This is one of those control signals.
* The folate cycle is involved in DNA repair and replication.
* The folate cycle participates in the biopterin cycle.
* The folate cycle performs the interconversion of serine and glycine.
* When to supplement folate?
* You are folate-deficient (per blood test).
* You were recently folate-deficient, and are still repleting your folate stores. This repletion may take several months, up to a year.
* Your diet is folate-deficient.
* You have folate absorption issues.
* Increase folate intake from food. This [NIH folate list](https://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Folate-HealthProfessional/#h3) may be helpful.
* Methylfolate supplements are a double-edged sword: while methylfolate is a readily usable natural form, it is a methyl donor and so may cause sudden changes in methylation which can result in side effects ranging from symptoms such as irritability, anxiety, headaches, fatigue to depression, depersonalization/derealization, and more. Yet, if side effects are minimized by careful dosing, that boost in methyl groups can create a sense of cognitive and mood improvement, at least in the initial weeks or months of the protocol.
* Methylfolate Dosing:
* Sublingual, or liquid drops, is the preferred supplement form. Sublinguals can easily be broken apart into 1/4 or 1/8 pieces to allow starting with small doses. For even smaller starting doses, liquid drops may be better.
* Typical sublingual methylfolate are 1000mcg. So, a 1/8 size piece (barely a crumb) is 125mcg.
* Sensitive people: Start with 125mcg once/day and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to twice per day. Increase next to 250mg twice per day, and so on.
* Very sensitive people: If even small amounts of methylfolate are causing issues and food folate is not enough, consider using the folinic acid form of folate. This is an unmethylated folate, also available as a sublingual. Follow the same incremental process above, starting at 125mcg.
* Very, very sensitive people: Use low-dosage liquid methylfolate and dissolve 1 drop in 10 equivalent drops of an oil (e.g., olive oil); this dilutes the folate drop by 10x. Then take just a drop of that diluted folate. Incrementally work your way up over time. See [this video segment](https://youtu.be/GT27aTx3A70?t=836).
* Less sensitive people: Start with 1/4 sublingual (250mcg) once/day at a meal and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to 250mcg twice per day at meals. Increase next to either 500mcg twice/day at meals or 250mcg 3 times/day at meals.
* Final dosage goal: This is highly individual. Some people may find that 500mcg (1/2 sublingual) per day suffices, some may find that 1000mcg or more is beneficial, and as noted earlier, some may find food folate alone sufficient. You need to monitor your own wellbeing and health to determine what is right for you.
* Folinic acid supplements are another natural usable folate form; however, folinic acid is not methylated, and still needs to be processed through MTHFR to become methylfolate. These factors make folinic acid much less likely to cause side effects compared to methylfolate.
* Folinic acid may not be advisable if you have significant slowdown of the MTHFS gene.
* Folinic acid dosing:
* Sublingual is the preferred supplement form. Sublinguals can easily be broken apart into 1/4 or 1/8 pieces to allow starting with small doses. For even smaller starting doses, liquid drops may be better.
* Typical sublingual folinic acid are 1000mcg. So, a 1/8 size piece (barely a crumb) is 125mcg.
* Sensitive people: Start with 125mcg once/day and see how it goes for several days. Increase next to twice per day. Increase next to 250mg twice per day, and so on.

Deleted user has reacted to this post.

#79 · April 3, 2024, 11:12 am

Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 10:58 am

@luke take your face palm and shove it up where the sun doesn't shine and take your brain out of there while you are at it. Nowhere in any of those studies does it say that folate is toxic and the lower limit established was originally to prevent b12 anemia masking, whether or not they still agree with this conclusion. That is why such a lower limit was established.

Neckbeard eruditic a-holes like you always do this. Claim because of your superior obfuscating language that you are so much smarter than everyone else, then go to ad hominems when I post one or two lines from the studies YOU ORIGINALLY POSTED that do not align with what you are claiming.

Do us all a favor and please don't try to join the real world anymore.

I’m of the opinion that such rage and resentment is to be met with compassion and is likely rooted in neurological agitation.

Wishing you the best on your healing journey.

Arios has reacted to this post.

#80 · April 3, 2024, 11:19 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 3, 2024, 11:19 am

Quote from AlexM on April 3, 2024, 10:20 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 3, 2024, 7:44 am

Quote from Luke on April 2, 2024, 7:51 pm

If the metabolic and enzyme pathways of "Vitamin A" were genuinely undeniable facts, you would have no motive to participate in this forum, and certainly, you wouldn't subscribe to the belief that it is toxic. It's evident that you don't consider these Vitamin A pathways to be factual; otherwise, you wouldn't be present here.

I'm not sure, but doesn't seem like he believes vitamin A is toxic as he is taking a parapack supplement:

Vitamin A (as palmitate and 50% as beta carotene) 2000 IU
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 60 mg
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 30 IU
Thiamine (as thiamine hydrochloride) 1.5 mg
Niacin (as niacinamide and 33% as niacin) 20 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2 mg
Folic Acid (as (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid) 25 mcg
Biotin 75 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 10 mg
Iodine (from kelp) 100 mcg
Zinc (TRAACS® zinc bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 20 mcg
Manganese (TRAACS® manganese bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Potassium (from potassium gluconate and 50% as potassium glycinate complex) 10 mg
Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex (citrus aurantium L.) 50mg
Inositol 25 mg
Betaine (from betaine hydrochloride) 20 mg
L-Tyrosine 10 mg
L-lysine HCL 10 mg
L-Glutamic Acid 10 mg
L-Serine 5 mg
Pyruvate (from calcium pyruvate) 5 mg *
Whole Adrenal Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Pituitary Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Parotid Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *

@janelle525 I can speak for myself? Not really necessary to make these kind of comments. And you have a habit of doing stuff like this such as when you tweeted GS about something Jessica said.

Its like me saying oh and @janelle525 eats Ice Cream regularly which you do.

Every time I have gone through phases of eating lots of ice cream my health slowly declines. Where as with taking the Para Pack and the other mineral balancing supplements I have only seen improvements. So go figure..

It was actually a binge of ice cream eating 2 weeks ago ( I was eating two tubs a day for a few days), which felt great at the time until I had numbness and tingling in my legs by the end of it and felt lower metabolism from all the constant blood sugar spikes which prompted me to do that prolonged water fast that I found helpful.

So yeah rather than always bringing up I take a TEI supplement that has Vitamin A every time on here like its terrible, try TEIs programme for 3 months yourself first and I can bet you it will improve your health compared to what you're doing now with the ice cream and stuff.

I was making note that it doesn't appear you are here due to vitamin A toxicity stuff. Which is fine, you are free to post here. But it appears this forum has attracted people who don't really care about vitamin A toxicity. I'm unsure why. Maybe you are curious to see how it pans out. This thread itself isn't even about vitamin A anymore! I'm not 100% on board with vitamin A is always a toxin, but I do think people get plenty of 'fresh' retinol if they are eating animal foods, and to purposefully get more via supps or liver is crazy to me, I think that experiment is clearly a disaster for a lot of people. Also another reason I will never take vitamin A is that it oxidizes easily, it's not a stable substance so how can you put so much trust in a pill bottle? Have you done any research on this anhydroretinol thing? Or are you just going to trust TEI?

And why are you still binging on ice cream if the program is so successful? I don't feel the need to binge on dairy, I eat maximum 5 oz a day, never any more than that. That is the only dairy other than a pat of butter I have been eating. I don't even want cheese anymore, but unsure if my health is better since going lower in dairy I've ever been my entire life. It's the fat that I think can be an issue with dairy, same issue I have with sausage. Just clogs up the system if you are a slow oxidizer. Meat and starch/veggies and maybe a little lower fat cheese, is probably the healthiest diet for slow oxidizers, but as you have demonstrated, hard to stick to, so like someone said on my log, probably better to give yourself some leeway so that you don't binge.

Quote from AlexM on April 3, 2024, 10:20 am

Quote from Janelle525 on April 3, 2024, 7:44 am

Quote from Luke on April 2, 2024, 7:51 pm

If the metabolic and enzyme pathways of "Vitamin A" were genuinely undeniable facts, you would have no motive to participate in this forum, and certainly, you wouldn't subscribe to the belief that it is toxic. It's evident that you don't consider these Vitamin A pathways to be factual; otherwise, you wouldn't be present here.

I'm not sure, but doesn't seem like he believes vitamin A is toxic as he is taking a parapack supplement:

Vitamin A (as palmitate and 50% as beta carotene) 2000 IU
Vitamin C (as ascorbic acid) 60 mg
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl succinate) 30 IU
Thiamine (as thiamine hydrochloride) 1.5 mg
Niacin (as niacinamide and 33% as niacin) 20 mg
Vitamin B6 (as pyridoxine hydrochloride) 2 mg
Folic Acid (as (6S)-5-methyltetrahydrofolic acid) 25 mcg
Biotin 75 mcg
Pantothenic Acid (as d-calcium pantothenate) 10 mg
Iodine (from kelp) 100 mcg
Zinc (TRAACS® zinc bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Selenium (as L-selenomethionine) 20 mcg
Manganese (TRAACS® manganese bisglycinate chelate†) 1 mg
Potassium (from potassium gluconate and 50% as potassium glycinate complex) 10 mg
Citrus Bioflavonoid Complex (citrus aurantium L.) 50mg
Inositol 25 mg
Betaine (from betaine hydrochloride) 20 mg
L-Tyrosine 10 mg
L-lysine HCL 10 mg
L-Glutamic Acid 10 mg
L-Serine 5 mg
Pyruvate (from calcium pyruvate) 5 mg *
Whole Adrenal Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Pituitary Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *
Whole Parotid Glandular (bovine) 5 mg *

@janelle525 I can speak for myself? Not really necessary to make these kind of comments. And you have a habit of doing stuff like this such as when you tweeted GS about something Jessica said.

Its like me saying oh and @janelle525 eats Ice Cream regularly which you do.

Every time I have gone through phases of eating lots of ice cream my health slowly declines. Where as with taking the Para Pack and the other mineral balancing supplements I have only seen improvements. So go figure..

It was actually a binge of ice cream eating 2 weeks ago ( I was eating two tubs a day for a few days), which felt great at the time until I had numbness and tingling in my legs by the end of it and felt lower metabolism from all the constant blood sugar spikes which prompted me to do that prolonged water fast that I found helpful.

So yeah rather than always bringing up I take a TEI supplement that has Vitamin A every time on here like its terrible, try TEIs programme for 3 months yourself first and I can bet you it will improve your health compared to what you're doing now with the ice cream and stuff.

I was making note that it doesn't appear you are here due to vitamin A toxicity stuff. Which is fine, you are free to post here. But it appears this forum has attracted people who don't really care about vitamin A toxicity. I'm unsure why. Maybe you are curious to see how it pans out. This thread itself isn't even about vitamin A anymore! I'm not 100% on board with vitamin A is always a toxin, but I do think people get plenty of 'fresh' retinol if they are eating animal foods, and to purposefully get more via supps or liver is crazy to me, I think that experiment is clearly a disaster for a lot of people. Also another reason I will never take vitamin A is that it oxidizes easily, it's not a stable substance so how can you put so much trust in a pill bottle? Have you done any research on this anhydroretinol thing? Or are you just going to trust TEI?

And why are you still binging on ice cream if the program is so successful? I don't feel the need to binge on dairy, I eat maximum 5 oz a day, never any more than that. That is the only dairy other than a pat of butter I have been eating. I don't even want cheese anymore, but unsure if my health is better since going lower in dairy I've ever been my entire life. It's the fat that I think can be an issue with dairy, same issue I have with sausage. Just clogs up the system if you are a slow oxidizer. Meat and starch/veggies and maybe a little lower fat cheese, is probably the healthiest diet for slow oxidizers, but as you have demonstrated, hard to stick to, so like someone said on my log, probably better to give yourself some leeway so that you don't binge.

All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity

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