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All Roads Lead To Anhydroretinol: The Sneaky Vitamin A metabolite that causes Vitamin A Toxicity
Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 12:58 pm@janelle525 Most people here have actually tried low VA diets in some form. Alex has. I have. They didn't bring better health. I think that perspective is a valuable one.
As I've said often enough, going low VA caused back/kidney pain, no lessening of hair loss, no recovered health in any valuable marker, and a raising of liver enzymes, and gaining of 30 pounds.
I think some people here want so badly for VA to be the thing that is wrong with their personal health that they don't want to hear anyone saying they tried it and it didn't work. I did too at one point, but really had to face reality when I gained weight and suffered from the diet. I have seen little evidence VA is actually a poison and that cutting it out of one's diet brings vibrant health. I feel sorry for those on low VA for years with no improvements and worsening health. I see it in these circles.
I feel like there are so many detox charlatans making money off peoples fear of modern toxins and chemicals that I'm extremely skeptical now of anyone claiming they have reinvented a wheel and have discovered some toxin that is the root of all modern ill health.
I was skeptical as well. Other than stopping vitamin A supps and liver I wasn't super convinced going really low was the answer. There are a few good testimonials coming out of Garrett's program but I stopped following because I always end up in a state of OCD and anxiety from following any extreme diet. My mental health needs to come first.
I do want to know what it is that helped Grant recover so well then? If it's not vitamin A what is it that was causing kidney failure and severe eczema? His diet wasn't super bad or anything before. Many people take fish oil without toxic effects. My father in law is one that believes in it though I'm not 100% positive if he is still taking it, but he's doing pretty well for someone in his late 60's. He tries to stay active and eat well.
Quote from Jessica2 on April 3, 2024, 3:07 pm@janelle525 I second that about extreme diets. It has been 2 years since I have been able to enjoy without guilt anything I grow in my own garden. This isn't a healthy mindset.
For as many success stories I see I feel like there are many more that just quietly quit or give up.
I'd like to know why Grant reversed a kidney condition too and seems to do well on such a limited diet. At one time I realized his diet is low phosphates, which indeed does help kidneys. Its also low fat, and low calories in general, low calcium, low oxalates and I think you pointed this out, low sulfites. At one time his diet was gluten free but I don't think it is anymore since he eats sourdough bread. I don't think he supplements and he eats bison more than beef, which while similar does have a somewhat different nutritional profile.
I follow a nutritional/chiropractic doctor on YouTube who also swears by fish oil. She seems healthy and fit enough but prematurely gray haired. I just know I won't touch any extracted oil from fish ever again in my life but I do eat seafood and probably always will.
I think soluble fiber is one of the reasons grant got better. It’s why Karen Hurd has so much success with her clients. But i do think other forms of aggressive liver detox, such as coffee enemas really help.
Obviously most people rely on others for health advice, most are not going to spend thousands of hours studying physiology and nutritional science for themselves.
People essentially have a choice between government guidelines and internet gurus that trash the guidelines. The same governments that mandate water fluoridation and folic acid fortification.
I honestly cannot think of one internet guru or author that I'd want to rely on though. Because the options are so poor some of us have taken it upon ourselves to just study physiology and nutritional science directly often for many years. Based on what I now know if I had to pick a diet to follow it'd probably be the old school food pyramid or the Mediterranean diet outlined by Ancel Keys.
A "guru" can say things about nutrition that are completely absurd yet it seems many people won't bat an eyelid. There are three main factors behind this they are (a) lack of understanding about nutrition on their part (no fault of theirs) (b) inherent distrust for mainstream authorities (no fault of theirs) and (c) lack of understanding about how science works (no fault of theirs). Many that lose trust in mainstream institutions then transfer their trust to an alternative source of information for nutrition which tends to be problematic. They would usually be better off eating instinctually.
Speaking as someone that now has a deep understanding of nutritional science and an incomplete but practical understanding of many aspects of physiology it's very obvious to me when someone is "fronting".
When someone is confidently stating absurdities and people are listening it's obviously a big problem. People can get very hurt by the incorrect information. So it's frustrating to watch. But if you step in to do something about it people that lack understanding can see your efforts as the problem especially if you are criticizing many instances of bad information. It also takes more time and effort to correct bad information than it does to produce it. It's a very thankless task.
Folate, vitamin C and vitamin A are all essential vitamins btw.
Lastly, to the people here endorsing Meredith Arthur please critique my critique of her article Oxalate: A Potential Contributor to Hypervitaminosis A. Please show me how I am wrong about the major problems I found with that article.
@jessica2
Yep when an opponent in a debate writes a diatribe but provides no sound argument or evidence to back up their claim you aren't obligated to address the points they make nor are you obligated to read any references they dump on you. Just point out the lack of presented evidence.
I normally quote, reference and discuss any applicable evidence to make my case. Basic stuff but how many do that here?
Quote from tim on April 3, 2024, 10:37 pmObviously most people rely on others for health advice, most are not going to spend thousands of hours studying physiology and nutritional science for themselves.
People essentially have a choice between government guidelines and internet gurus that trash the guidelines. The same governments that mandate water fluoridation and folic acid fortification.
I honestly cannot think of one internet guru or author that I'd want to rely on though. Because the options are so poor some of us have taken it upon ourselves to just study physiology and nutritional science directly often for many years. Based on what I now know if I had to pick a diet to follow it'd probably be the old school food pyramid or the Mediterranean diet outlined by Ancel Keys.
A "guru" can say things about nutrition that are completely absurd yet it seems many people won't bat an eyelid. There are three main factors behind this they are (a) lack of understanding about nutrition on their part (no fault of theirs) (b) inherent distrust for mainstream authorities (no fault of theirs) and (c) lack of understanding about how science works (no fault of theirs). Many that lose trust in mainstream institutions then transfer their trust to an alternative source of information for nutrition which tends to be problematic. They would usually be better off eating instinctually.
Speaking as someone that now has a deep understanding of nutritional science and an incomplete but practical understanding of many aspects of physiology it's very obvious to me when someone is "fronting".
When someone is confidently stating absurdities and people are listening it's obviously a big problem. People can get very hurt by the incorrect information. So it's frustrating to watch. But if you step in to do something about it people that lack understanding can see your efforts as the problem especially if you are criticizing many instances of bad information. It also takes more time and effort to correct bad information than it does to produce it. It's a very thankless task.
Folate, vitamin C and vitamin A are all essential vitamins btw.
Lastly, to the people here endorsing Meredith Arthur please critique my critique of her article Oxalate: A Potential Contributor to Hypervitaminosis A. Please show me how I am wrong about the major problems I found with that article.
I really don’t think Retinoids or ascorbic acid are essential at all. According to the established science. Vit c is needed to hydroxylate amino acids for collagen synthesis. But meat already has hydroxylated amino acids in it. So if you eat enough meat, you don’t need vit c. Retinoids are a whole different can of worms.
Those are deeply problematic pronouncements you are making.
We probably can't use hydroxylated amino acids directly.
But even if we could vitamin C has many other roles in the body. One is as a cofactor for 7 alpha-hydroxylase which is part of the pathway for converting cholesterol into bile acids.
Fresh and frozen meat contains vitamin C. If you want to give yourself scurvy eat as much gelatin and dried meat as you want but avoid fresh and frozen meat.
No one has shown any evidence that vitamin A is non essential. Grant has even had mild symptoms of xeropthalmia which he blames on onion consumption. Xeropthalmia normally occurs during general malnourishment in the third world presumably due to factors like zinc and riboflavin deficiency affecting transport protein function or enzyme function or an explanation like that. Retinoic acid deficiency is most obvious during reproduction in which it is teratogenic.
I fear that years from now we'll hear horror stories from women that were pregnant while following very low vitamin A diets long term. I pray that doesn't happen but that is what the science indicates could happen.
If someone reacts to a food high in carotenoids it doesn't necessarily even implicate carotenoids but even if it is the carotenoids causing the sensitivity or allergy it doesn't mean carotenoids are very toxic just like salicylate sensitivity or peanut allergy don't imply toxicity and it doesn't implicate retinoids. It implicates poor liver function more than anything else.
Quote from tim on April 3, 2024, 10:37 pmObviously most people rely on others for health advice, most are not going to spend thousands of hours studying physiology and nutritional science for themselves.
People essentially have a choice between government guidelines and internet gurus that trash the guidelines. The same governments that mandate water fluoridation and folic acid fortification.
I honestly cannot think of one internet guru or author that I'd want to rely on though. Because the options are so poor some of us have taken it upon ourselves to just study physiology and nutritional science directly often for many years. Based on what I now know if I had to pick a diet to follow it'd probably be the old school food pyramid or the Mediterranean diet outlined by Ancel Keys.
A "guru" can say things about nutrition that are completely absurd yet it seems many people won't bat an eyelid. There are three main factors behind this they are (a) lack of understanding about nutrition on their part (no fault of theirs) (b) inherent distrust for mainstream authorities (no fault of theirs) and (c) lack of understanding about how science works (no fault of theirs). Many that lose trust in mainstream institutions then transfer their trust to an alternative source of information for nutrition which tends to be problematic. They would usually be better off eating instinctually.
Speaking as someone that now has a deep understanding of nutritional science and an incomplete but practical understanding of many aspects of physiology it's very obvious to me when someone is "fronting".
When someone is confidently stating absurdities and people are listening it's obviously a big problem. People can get very hurt by the incorrect information. So it's frustrating to watch. But if you step in to do something about it people that lack understanding can see your efforts as the problem especially if you are criticizing many instances of bad information. It also takes more time and effort to correct bad information than it does to produce it. It's a very thankless task.
Folate, vitamin C and vitamin A are all essential vitamins btw.
Lastly, to the people here endorsing Meredith Arthur please critique my critique of her article Oxalate: A Potential Contributor to Hypervitaminosis A. Please show me how I am wrong about the major problems I found with that article.
This is pretty spot on in my humble opinion. I appreciate your time and effort in sharing your thoughts sir.
Quote from Bella on March 22, 2024, 10:22 amAnother one by Meri on the retinol and beta carotene content of meat.
The study in question is saying beef contains about 100x more vitamin A than what nutrition databases and other studies say. Why is nobody discussing this?
Quote from tim on April 5, 2024, 12:13 amThose are deeply problematic pronouncements you are making.
We probably can't use hydroxylated amino acids directly.
But even if we could vitamin C has many other roles in the body. One is as a cofactor for 7 alpha-hydroxylase which is part of the pathway for converting cholesterol into bile acids.
Fresh and frozen meat contains vitamin C. If you want to give yourself scurvy eat as much gelatin and dried meat as you want but avoid fresh and frozen meat.
No one has shown any evidence that vitamin A is non essential. Grant has even had mild symptoms of xeropthalmia which he blames on onion consumption. Xeropthalmia normally occurs during general malnourishment in the third world presumably due to factors like zinc and riboflavin deficiency affecting transport protein function or enzyme function or an explanation like that. Retinoic acid deficiency is most obvious during reproduction in which it is teratogenic.
I fear that years from now we'll hear horror stories from women that were pregnant while following very low vitamin A diets long term. I pray that doesn't happen but that is what the science indicates could happen.
If someone reacts to a food high in carotenoids it doesn't necessarily even implicate carotenoids but even if it is the carotenoids causing the sensitivity or allergy it doesn't mean carotenoids are very toxic just like salicylate sensitivity or peanut allergy don't imply toxicity and it doesn't implicate retinoids. It implicates poor liver function more than anything else.
All I can say is I didn’t consume any appreciable amount of vit c for 2 years. And I didn’t get scurvy or bile acid insufficiency.