Quote from mmb3664 on November 28, 2020, 11:51 am

Just my two cents:

I think you will get rid of some bile by having a bowel movement (or 20), but I would not use something so harsh to induce a bowel movement. Having noticeable systems like the ones you mentioned does not sound like a good sign to me. I think your symptoms post-flush might be more related to electrolyte imbalance or just a shock/stress response than vA or bile being dumped from your system. You should feel better after cleaning out your system/intestines, not worse.

Can I ask why you are doing Epsom salt flushes to induce a bowel movement/diarrhea and how often you are doing this? If you are trying to flush your system of parasites or yeast, Epsom salt (or just sea salt) flushes are an option, but if you are trying to clear out bile, I think coffee enemas would be a better option. Coffee enemas would be less harsh on your system and coffee is known to stimulate bile flow, which sounds like what you are after.

I don't know if anyone else has experience with the above and can chime in. 

Quote from Gonzalo on November 28, 2020, 2:48 pm

Thanks for your response.

Yes, my main objective is trying to get rid of bile, I took accutane and still have lingering effects so if I am correct this may be because some of it is trapped in the enterohepatic recirculation and I thought provoking this diarrhea is the best way for me to expel the bile, since I do not do well/not convinced about beans and soluble fiber (I am following a strict beef, water, zero sugar coke diet and I feel very good, but there are some symptoms that still do not improve  as much as I would like even after 1 year, so I believe the problem is that I was trapped in the enterohepatic recirculation before I began doing the flushes). I got this method from the gallbladder and liver flush, but in my opinion the most important aspect of this flush is the fact that taking the 4 doses of Epsom salt causes lots of bowel movements and I believe I have expelled massive amounts of bile every time (the last bowel movements were always yellow/green).

I have to clarify that even though I get detox symptoms the following days (redness, breakouts, flaky skin...) the net result is that I feel much better and my symptoms have been improving constantly (except for the detox spikes after the flush), so I believe I am moving in the right direction and will keep doing the flushes. For example my facial redness (diagnosed as Keratosis Pilaris Rubra Faceii, which I got after Accutane and is usually believed to be a vitamin A "deficiency"), which is my main symptom, used to be much worse, now the baseline has improved tremendously and each time I do the flush, I get better and better. Right now is almost unnoticable and still improving, before it was very red (imagine a bad sunburn or severe rosacea).

Thanks for the enema suggestion, I ordered the bag and will do water enemas alongside the flushes. I know it is harsh and I hate the process (the Epsom salts taste terrible and having diarrhea for many hours is never fun), but I am willing to push through it, for me it's harder to live with some of the symptoms I have.

I would like to ask some people here like @orion @tim-2 @jiri @ourania @zak and those that are more veterans to ask them if my reasoning makes sense and could work, even though the process is hard and tough on the body I am willing to experiment. I have read some anecdotes about doing these liver flushes after accutane and getting no results because they did not have a healthy bile flow, but I believe my bile flow is good since I have been eating fatty meats for one year+ without a problem. (as an anecdote, I never had serious digestive issues, but after the first few flushes I feel even better and my digestion has improved x10, now I can drink water right after eating whereas before I would feel bloated, I feel like nothing after eating 1kg/2 pounds+ of meat).

Thanks all, I wish you the best on your journeys.

Gonzalo

Quote from mmb3664 on November 29, 2020, 6:45 am

If you are feeling much better after the flushes and think they are working for you, I would continue to do them as long as they are helpful. I would just be careful about doing them too often due to electrolyte imbalances. 

I have been at the low vA diet for almost 2 years now and also feel like I was stuck in some weird cycle where I was not making progress for months. Weekly salt flushes, herbal teas (roasted dandelion root and burdock root) and working on cleaning out my intestines helped to kickstart things again, so I understand your willingness to push through the flushes. I also found them helpful despite how unpleasant they are to do. 

Also, I am curious as to why you are not convinced beans or soluble fiber are helpful. Although I would not emphasize soluble fiber to the extent that Dr. Smith is pushing it, I think having some soluble fiber can be beneficial during this process. If beans are not an option for you, mushrooms are an alternative for soluble fiber. @tim-2 has mentioned in posts and videos about how mushrooms contain beta glucan, which is a type of soluble fiber. Mushrooms may be worth experimenting with?

Finally, I know you did not ask for an opinion on this, but I think it would be beneficial for you to ditch the diet soda. I imagine that, at best, it is harmless, but at worst, it could be hindering your progress a bit as well. In my view, it is basically unnecessary chemicals that you are burdening your liver with. I would replace it with organic decaf coffee or non-leafy herbal teas. 

Quote from Gonzalo on November 29, 2020, 10:52 am

Thanks again.

What type of salt flush do you do, do you use sea salt or Epsom salt?Did you notice an improvement after a flush? Do you have detox reactions after the flush? After 2 years, how much have you improved?

Thanks for the suggestion, but I would rather stick to carnivore and do the flushes to expel bile. I prefer not to ingest soluble fiber for many reasons but in general, in my case, they provoke more negative effects than the possible benefits every time I try. Do you feel it is an important aspect in your detox process?

Regarding soda diet I know it is not optimal, but when I go out is the best option for me, since I do not want to drink water when I am with friends. So i drink it infrequently, maybe 1-2 times per week.

Gonzalo.

 

Quote from mmb3664 on November 29, 2020, 1:56 pm

Quote from Gonzalo on November 29, 2020, 10:52 am

Thanks again.

What type of salt flush do you do, do you use sea salt or Epsom salt? Did you notice an improvement after a flush? Do you have detox reactions after the flush? After 2 years, how much have you improved?

I was using 1.5 - 2 Tbsp of sea salt in about 16 oz of water and never experienced any detox reactions after the flushes. I only felt lighter and had more energy. In general, my vA toxicity symptoms and detox cycles seem to express themselves primarily as G.I. issues like stomach pain or weird bowel movements and musculoskeletal issues like stiff joints, muscle tightness/spasms and random bone or joint pain. I never really had any skin-related issues. I do have dry skin, especially in the winter, but I never had bad acne, eczema, rosacea, etc. I think my dry skin is related to low thyroid, which I hope will improve as I continue this low vA lifestyle.

February 2nd will be the two year mark of low vA for me. So far, some improvements I have seen are better sleep, increased stability and muscle control, reduced muscle tightness, better/stronger hair and nail growth, reduced sensitivity to the sun (not just skin, but my eyes too), better tolerance of cold weather/temperatures, no bloating after meals, 5-10 lbs or so of weight loss and more regular and shorter menstrual cycles, to name a few. I am still looking to improve digestion and hormonal balance more, but I definitely feel like I am on the right track.

In general, it feels like I am slowly turning back the clock on my age, returning to how I felt 10-12 years ago. My body feels more relaxed and flexible overall. I also notice my mood/attitude is more relaxed as well.

Quote from Gonzalo on November 29, 2020, 2:07 pm

hi @are

So basically I spent around one year or so eating carnivore diet (strict beef and water) with some improvements, I would say around 60% (my only lasting effects were dandruff and KP on the face, which did improve but not 100%). So yes, I felt trapped because even though time went on, things did not seem to improve beyond a point or it was going too slow.

I knew about Grant's vitamin A theory but I hadn't read anything about enterohepatic recirculation. Once I found out about this recirculation of toxic bile I knew I needed to get out of this cycle. So basically I found about Bile Acid Malabsorption Diarrhea (it occurs because there is a problem with bile reabsorption and it causes diarrhea because the bile leaves the body) by chance. Then I found out about liver flushes, which is a method, if I am right, inspired by ayurveda, forcing the body to purge the toxins out through diarrhea. The liver flush requires olive oil, but the version I do is just using the epsom salts to induce the diarrhea and hopefully get bile out. The epsom salts, I got them from Amazon, but you have to be sure that they are edible. The most common type of Epsom salt is the one people use to bath and that is not the one you want to do the flush with because you are ingesting it through the mouth. I would recommend you do some reading about the liver flush on Internet because it can be harsh and you have to know the doses etc. You have to understand the procedure to be safe and adjust the doses accordingly. I am no expert, but the one I do is the standard 4 doses of 15 grams of Epsom salt+180ml water at 6pm, 8pm, 6am, 8am. It is very harsh on the body and you get lots of bowel movements after taking the mix. My intuition tells me that this method is going to expel a lot of bile each time you do it, but I am no expert on this subject and I may be wrong. Please @tim-2 @orion @jiri @ggenereux2014 if you could give your views on this method to get the bile out, I would inmensily appreciate it.

I am pretty sure there is a correlation between the flushes and my improvements because after doing a couple of them, my redness caused by the KP has improved dramatically, much less red, almost normal now. Will keep doing them. Also, after each flush I seem to get detox reactions which I do not get if I just stick with my carnivore diet but I also feel good and I feel like I have get rid of heavy weight (which makes sense because in my case the Epsom salts are very effective and I get a lot of diarrhea for some hours).

I wish you the best,

Gonzalo

 

Quote from Orion on November 29, 2020, 3:07 pm

@are @gonzalo

This is the flush I have done 20 times;

Liver Gallbladder Flush

but did them before I started or knew of low VA. 

I have not done them in the last 2yrs on low VA, and still have healed.  I do believe they can be extremely useful, but would really think the olive oil is needed to produce the big bile dump.

Quote from Gonzalo on November 30, 2020, 6:13 am

Thanks @orion I have followed the same protocol with olive oil too for around 7 times. I thought maybe just with the epsom salt it would work, but you are right, maybe the fat ingestion to force the body to produce bile is key.

Why have you not incorporated the liver flushes in addition to the low vitamin A diet?

What were your results when you did them?Did you notice improvements after them?

Thanks for answering.

Gonzalo.

Quote from Orion on November 30, 2020, 7:36 am

@gonzalo At the time when I was doing them every two weeks before trying low VA, never really saw pros or cons.  Was planning to add them during low VA, but I continue to improve without them.  Also when doing them, you really need to have a toilet close by for the day, so sometimes planning them is complicated, oh and drinking the epsom salt is horrible!

This thread has me thinking I should maybe test it out again, see how I feel now.