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Brooke Goldner: Goodbye Autoimmune
Quote from AlexM on January 7, 2024, 5:11 am@anon33 Because the idea that Vitamin A is only a toxin is completely false and is spread around here because of people's bias. Other things like chronic infections, gut dysbiosis, heavy metal toxicity and mineral imbalances are major factors of autoimmune diseases.
I don't think it's "completely" false. If VA was so great, why would we have to clear it at all? I think it's obvious that VA isn't much of a building-block for the human body. I do think it might be kind of a weapon, sometimes. I think that is why overages are seen to be "immune system run amok".
The vegetable world is full of all sorts of toxins because that is how plants manage things like excess sunlight and bugs. VA is far from the only baddie in the world and all toxins matter.
We are omnivores in this world of toxic veggies (and other toxins). To survive we have systems that filter these veg (and other) toxins all out and eliminate them. Now, if we are struggling with detoxifying we can eat more animal foods and hope that the animal's filter system got rid of the veg toxins the animal ate... and that is probably why some people do well on carnivore. However, if we cut back on veg foods, who knows? We might miss other things that are helpful, perhaps like potassium or fiber.
Could be that Doctor Goldner threw out animal foods with the metaphorical bathwater and she wasn't cured *because* she is vegan. In the same vein, she might be cured despite eating carotenes. My bet is she has been cured for some other reason. Just like Grant might have been helped along by reducing his gluten, but it wasn't his intent. Or by riding his bike, he might have had more growth hormone than others here who are sedentary and that helped him along.
I have a brother who was horribly asthmatic until he became an adult and took up smoking and drinking and golfing.
Personally I think he got better despite smoking, drinking, and being exposed to golf-course chemicals.
I sometimes have asthma symptoms, should I take up golfing, smoking and drinking too?
Quote from r on January 7, 2024, 12:59 am
Being vegan is a fad that has been coming and going for ever. There is a place not so far from me, so heavenly, where there was a vegan experiment in the 1800's. I don't think it lasted more than a decade. Soft-hearted people love the idea, how can you blame them? However vegan certainly isn't traditional, and an omnivorous diet got your ancestral tree to this time and place (YOU). The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Quote from lil chick on January 7, 2024, 7:35 amI don't think it's "completely" false. If VA was so great, why would we have to clear it at all? I think it's obvious that VA isn't much of a building-block for the human body. I do think it might be kind of a weapon, sometimes. I think that is why overages are seen to be "immune system run amok".
@r-2-So you agree the traditional grandparent advice of eat your vegetables is correct?
Quote from Inger on January 7, 2024, 1:45 aFirst, beta carotene, which is what you will get as a vegan, does not absorb much without fat. And many raw vegans dont eat fat, or they are very cautious about what food they combine, like they dont combine nuts with other foods (because this will give digestive trouble etc) Also its genetic how much beta carotene gets converted to vitamin A, about 50% of people convert very poorly.I used to be raw (almost) vegan. There is a lot of food combining advice, and also many do good only on very low fat raw vegan. Most that do higher fat end up feeling unwell or getting fat etc.
The smoothie does have fat in the form of chia or flax seeds (recommended to use a coffee grinder or Vitamix to fully pulverize them). Can also use flax oil.
Quote from lil chick on January 7, 2024, 6:31 amIs this the one that grew up in a pizza shop?
Edited to add: Does she eat tomatoes or is she perhaps a night-shade free vegan? It seems to me that your general purpose dough/tomato/cheese pizza is very toxic to me, but I can eat bread and cheese all day without issue. I can also eat a raw tomato here and there without issue. It's the combo. I think people don't realize how concentrated red sauce is, too. It is tomatoes reduced like 4 to 1. And long simmered (which might cause other toxins to form).
Pizza + SODA (bubbles are also problematic to me) and I can almost insure that I'll be barfing before bedtime.
This is from childhood for me.
Being raised in a pizza shop would have killed me too. Maybe just leaving the pizza shop cured her LOL.
Yeah that's her and I agree eating pizza every day can be very toxic and simply removing that from her life was probably extremely helpful overall. I also know Grant said he was drinking a lot of milk prior to his issues and from personal experience I know dairy does not do me well so that alone could be the cause of a lot of problem in my opinion.
With that said I am less concerned with what may have helped people recover from whatever illness they had and am more specifically interested in how anyone (let alone many people over the course of many years) are thriving consuming massive quantities of vitamin A if it is a toxin. I think if we are going to be "scientific" about this theory then we must look at the difficult instances that call into question the truth of it and attempt to disprove the theory in an effort to test it.
Personally I think Grant is a very intelligent person and I don't think the idea of needing to do that is news to him nor is it something he is against so I hope nobody takes offense to me bringing attention to situations like this that appear to contradict what is being espoused on this site. I am not trying to upset anyone or cause trouble. I am simply seeking the truth with regards to vitamin A and autoimmune issues regardless of how uncomfortable that process is.
Quote from AlexM on January 7, 2024, 8:44 amQuote from lil chick on January 7, 2024, 7:35 amI don't think it's "completely" false. If VA was so great, why would we have to clear it at all? I think it's obvious that VA isn't much of a building-block for the human body. I do think it might be kind of a weapon, sometimes. I think that is why overages are seen to be "immune system run amok".@lil-chick You do realise that this is the case with the metabolism of most other nutrients in our body, our bodies regulate and clear any excess of them. So going by your logic because we have to clear it, then that's good evidence for it only being a toxin and not having any benefits, it's reductionist statements like this which are steering me away from this forum.
Ok, I hear you. Sure, we might have too much water and then we regulate that by peeing it out and occasionally someone's system can't keep up and they die by water intoxication. Doesn't mean we don't need and use water. We get too many calories we transfer it into fat and store it. Too much fat and we end up very ill. Doesn't mean we don't need and use calories.
I guess at this point it doesn't seem like Grant is suffering from the loss of it, as he would if he dropped water or calories.
Reductionism is to think of things in simpler terms than they really are. But maybe that is all we can do as human beings. We can't actually understand the entire human body and it's relationship to it's environment, it is just too complex. We are forever going to be the guys feeling up the elephant with our blindfolds on. I suppose that is why I lean so heavy on tradition, which at least benefits from knowledge gleaned through many generations of guys feeling up the elephant.
As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. When we veer from tradition, with ideas such as veganism, we are experimenting. (and it's not like this particular experiment, veganism, is new). The intentions are great though.
My grandparents didn't eat a lot of colored veggies.
Quote from Anon33 on January 7, 2024, 9:28 am@r-2-So you agree the traditional grandparent advice of eat your vegetables is correct?
I was just thinking how just the fact that you NEED to admonish people to eat something makes me wonder if the people refusing it have good reason (ie tastes bitter or their body doesn't have an urge for it)
In the olden days it was considered a sin to waste food of any type. My little homestead has always churned out more veggies and fruits than anyone would want to eat. I could have stopped spending money on meat and bread and just served plums or squash but the family would have gone on strike. I'm always interested in that first fruit, but about 3 peaches in... I'm done for the year.
Quote from Anon33 on January 7, 2024, 9:28 am@r-2-So you agree the traditional grandparent advice of eat your vegetables is correct?
Quote from Inger on January 7, 2024, 1:45 aFirst, beta carotene, which is what you will get as a vegan, does not absorb much without fat. And many raw vegans dont eat fat, or they are very cautious about what food they combine, like they dont combine nuts with other foods (because this will give digestive trouble etc) Also its genetic how much beta carotene gets converted to vitamin A, about 50% of people convert very poorly.I used to be raw (almost) vegan. There is a lot of food combining advice, and also many do good only on very low fat raw vegan. Most that do higher fat end up feeling unwell or getting fat etc.The smoothie does have fat in the form of chia or flax seeds (recommended to use a coffee grinder or Vitamix to fully pulverize them). Can also use flax oil.
Quote from lil chick on January 7, 2024, 6:31 amIs this the one that grew up in a pizza shop?
Edited to add: Does she eat tomatoes or is she perhaps a night-shade free vegan? It seems to me that your general purpose dough/tomato/cheese pizza is very toxic to me, but I can eat bread and cheese all day without issue. I can also eat a raw tomato here and there without issue. It's the combo. I think people don't realize how concentrated red sauce is, too. It is tomatoes reduced like 4 to 1. And long simmered (which might cause other toxins to form).
Pizza + SODA (bubbles are also problematic to me) and I can almost insure that I'll be barfing before bedtime.
This is from childhood for me.
Being raised in a pizza shop would have killed me too. Maybe just leaving the pizza shop cured her LOL.
Yeah that's her and I agree eating pizza every day can be very toxic and simply removing that from her life was probably extremely helpful overall. I also know Grant said he was drinking a lot of milk prior to his issues and from personal experience I know dairy does not do me well so that alone could be the cause of a lot of problem in my opinion.
With that said I am less concerned with what may have helped people recover from whatever illness they had and am more specifically interested in how anyone (let alone many people over the course of many years) are thriving consuming massive quantities of vitamin A if it is a toxin. I think if we are going to be "scientific" about this theory then we must look at the difficult instances that call into question the truth of it and attempt to disprove the theory in an effort to test it.
Personally I think Grant is a very intelligent person and I don't think the idea of needing to do that is news to him nor is it something he is against so I hope nobody takes offense to me bringing attention to situations like this that appear to contradict what is being espoused on this site. I am not trying to upset anyone or cause trouble. I am simply seeking the truth with regards to vitamin A and autoimmune issues regardless of how uncomfortable that process is.
We have a major problem with the allergen theory. It's usually not just one thing. I have psoriasis in my butt crack, I tried at least a month of zero milk proteins, I had zero improvement. Same with gluten. And I gave that one I think 2 months. I also had zero improvement going off nightshades like chili powder and potatoes, I have never seen any improvement in eliminating common allergens the only thing I haven't tried yet is going on an extreme elimination diet. That's why Grant's theory is so compelling, it's not just the same old regurgitated line of the immune system attacking our own cells. We have to ask more questions. Also if it was gluten intolerance for Grant he wouldn't have been able to introduce gluten again. The dairy might have been a good reason as dairy IS associated with eczema and allergies, but then why are people not cured if it's only dairy protein allergy? Grant asked all these questions already. I think he gives a good theory as to why all of a sudden an adult would have problems or why a child 'grows out of' their eczema (only to have another autoimmune disease later in life). The liver and kidneys get to a point of not be able to keep up with the load of vitamin A.
Also have you followed anyone for decades of their life eating liver or other extremely high sources? Everyone has a tolerance range. Just like some people feel the effects of one drink of alcohol and others can consume an entire bottle. Does that mean alcohol isn't a toxin if there are people living to be 80 drinking alcohol their whole adult lives? No one with any ability to see the evidence would say alcohol isn't a toxin. One thing alcohol DOES do is it ties up ALDH so that when there is methanol floating around it isn't converted to formaldehyde. In that sense its therapeutic if you eat a lot of high methanol sources such as smoked meats and canned tomatoes. I actually would only recommend a drink with those foods. With vitamin A I don't see a benefit unless it's clear you have none left in your liver (and who can possibly do that as an adult? we will find out with Grant hopefully).
Quote from Anon33 on January 7, 2024, 12:34 amHas anyone else read the book “Goodbye Autoimmune Disease” by Brooke Goldner? She is a medical doctor (specializing in psychiatry)who had lupus through her teenage and early 20’s and she cured it by going vegan (largely raw) and it has not returned since (she is in her 40’s now).
The interesting part is she eats at least 450 grams of raw “greens” per day (spinach, kale, leafy greens mix) in the form of a smoothie mixed with fruit (bananas, mangoes) and chia or flax seeds. Needless to say this smoothie is loaded with an insane amount of vitamin A yet she has kept her lupus at bay for 2 decades eating this every day and has helped numerous people with other autoimmune issues do the same (there’s a lot of pictures and testimonials in the book to verify this).
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So what do you all think about results like this while ingesting very large quantities of vitamin A on daily basis (100g of raw spinach can have over 9,000 IU’s for example)?
Look at the recipe. First, the kale and spinach are high in fiber. Then she adds flax and chia, which are super sources of fiber. I've been speculating for a while now that fiber can help with Vitamin A detox. And if you are taking the fiber together with the vitamin A, it shouldn't get a foothold. If this doctors method is really working for her and others, it is probably the fiber neutralizing the vitamin A before it can do any damage.
I am back on my fiber mix. I have it down from 30 ingredients to about 15. Feeling good. Recommend 1 gram of fiber per kilo of bodyweight per day. A local healer also recommended to me 40 grams of drinking water per day per kilo of bodyweight, to help the liver detox. She was very near death, a day or two away, and that was the main thing that helped her. Drinking water with electrolyte in it, of course. A bit of table salt. A teaspoon per gallon is good, use more if you feel the weak or dizzy, tired or absent-minded.
My current understanding is that the soluble fiber will absorb the vitA and other toxins in your gut, while the insoluble fiber keeps things "moving along" so it exits the other side. Without more detailed information, I'm just trying to make sure I get about 50/50 soluble and insoluble fiber. I'm counting resistant starch as insoluble fiber.