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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
IF you're going to supplement with anything on a meat-based diet, I personally would say that taurine is probably the safest and most productive option. Maybe Vitamin E...I'd look into the research behind that and see what you think. I'm still not sure about magnesium...I continue taking it thinking it's helping my muscular problems, but I certainly have my doubts and wonder if, just like taking any other nutrient in supplement form, I'm getting extra magnesium that is speeding up part of the detox process and leading to an imbalance that is making me more miserable than necessary. It could, ironically, actually be making my muscle problems worse if it's speeding up detox and the detox itself is what is causing the muscle problems. I would be more bold in experimenting with removing it, except that the discomfort I get from some of these muscle problems is absolutely terrible, and I haven't brought myself to face the potential that it will worsen for days on end if I stop the magnesium. I really do need to try it though, otherwise I'll never know.
I think it's probably best to eat sea salt to taste, but there are enough people on carnivore who hardly eat salt that I do wonder what impact it has. If you're not going hogwild with it, your body should easily eliminate whatever it doesn't need without depleting other minerals, but I suspect if you take in way more than you need it might deplete magnesium, potassium, and calcium.
I've had a lot of symptoms come and go. The worst ones that persist are muscle problems/fatigue, nightly gas, and loose stools/diarrhea. Most of the skin problems have slowly improved. I strongly believe that most symptoms come from the process of Vitamin A coming out of storage in the peripheral tissues, so more symptoms likely means faster detox. Thus, the more nutrient supplements you take, the closer you stick to carnivore, the more symptoms you can probably expect, but the faster you will get past the toxicity. If your symptoms disappear by straying from skeletal meat carnivore, but then they come back when you return to carnivore, I think that's indication that whatever non-carnivore stuff you added is likely slowing detox and not truly helping, just mitigating pain.
Vitamin A toxicity definitely seems like it could contribute to osteoporosis by altering calcium deposition and bone loss. I'm sure it also messes with your reproductive hormones to some degree. I had low testosterone...not sure if it's from oxalates or Vitamin A toxicity or both...and testosterone is required for estrogen production, so there's a potential connection there. Skeletal meat carnivore is known to cure osteoporosis and hormonal problems.
I don't know that I can recommend any blood tests for specifically addressing Vitamin A toxicity. It seems really hard to pinpoint chronic Vitamin A toxicity from regular labwork because your body tries to minimize damage by keeping any excess in storage. From what I've gathered, you might expect to see minor problems with copper and iron pooling in the liver, low levels of almost any nutrient in the plasma, somewhat elevated AST or ALT, high HbA1C or fasting glucose.
If your copper metabolism is working well, I think heart on occasion is an excellent choice. But, as with all the other organ meats, just to a lesser extent, I still think you can probably overdo it if you're eating it all the time. Best to stick by the tried and true skeletal meat and fat diet with only occasional forays into the organs if ever.
I'm really not quite sure what happens with "low" fat carnivore. How low is too low... If you're too low on energy intake, your thyroid and other things will certainly suffer. If you routinely reach the point of satiation and still have energy to be active and are sleeping OK, you are probably getting enough fat. Just prior to agriculture, I think humans were more and more hardpressed to get enough fat from hunting animals because the megafauna largely died out and we were forced to spend more energy actively seeking and following smaller, leaner game. Homo sapiens is a smaller, lankier species built for running more than our predecessors probably because of that, and recent hunter gatherer groups are probably constantly riding the line of barely getting enough fat and eating too much lean meat. I wouldn't be surprised if this had something to do with agriculture becoming predominant, because in the absence of fat we rely on carbohydrates for survival, and getting enough carbs from wild plants dispersed on the landscape is and was probably damn near impossible.
I don't think there's any set universal fat:protein ratio that's ideal, just follow your body's cravings and know that it's basically impossible to overeat on a carnivore diet, so if eating more protein or fat is even remotely appealing, then you should probably keep eating until you've got an obvious satiety signal to stop. With Vitamin A toxicity, your liver downregulates the production of bile acids, so if you do have toxicity and your liver is filled to the brim, you will probably get fat malabsorption from even moderate amounts of fat. This has been my experience...smaller amounts of fat are OK, larger amounts are clearly not. I think this will be a clear signal that you've reduced your Vitamin A load in the liver...when you can eat more fat and not malabsorb it, you know you're getting there.
I think I saw a fair amount of foamy urine early on in my low Vitamin A diet. Could've been because I was eating too much lean meat, not sure. It could've been due to oxalates that I was dumping at the same time...the most obvious sign I had oxalate problems was cloudy urine that came out for about a month after I cut plants from the diet.
Grass finished vs Grain finished: I personally think that grass finished animals are healthier, and that the health of the animal is more important than worrying about any difference in Vitamin A content, which should be small either way. The best would be getting beef that was finished on hay that has lost some of its beta-carotene content (so, buying it in the winter or spring). It's obviously completely natural for herbivores to eat the seed heads off of natural occurring grasses, but the stuff that grain-finished cows are fed seems pretty different from the little seed heads they'd get naturally. Most of our agricultural system is comprised of mutant plants and mutant animals unfortunately.
I've never been a big fan of seafood myself and I think it's probably safer to completely avoid it than to eat too much of it. I live in Alaska and have caught my own sockeye salmon for almost a decade, but I'm starting to reconsider whether that is such a great idea anymore. If you do eat seafood, I'd stick to small fish at the bottom of the food chain, but maybe avoid bottom-feeders like halibut. Herring, sardines, anchovies, hooligan, maybe salmon, no farmed ones though.
I'll try the taurine at some point. Over at Smith's network they stress the importance of propper supplementation. That confused me a lot. He thinks that especially molybdenum is extremely important when it comes to copper and iron metabolism. Is that true at all? If a bloodtest shows high copper and high ferritin, does molybdenum help in any way?
Ok, and you have done the detox for 2 years, correct? Wow, that will take a while for me then... Have you checked any bloods yourself?
Sadly carnivore hasn't fixed my low oestrogen yet. I'm wondering if it is due to the low fat content I'm eating.
They want to put me on HRT (bio identical oestrogen). I'm hesitant, since it is an additional stress on the liver. Any thought on that? Or has anyone else experienced similar problems?
You're probably right with the beef heart. It is high in basically everything and I'm currently eating it every day. I REALLY enjoy it though and it is dirt cheap. (2$/lbs) But it might be best to only eat it a few times per month.
As far as the low fat is concerned, are there any problems with the kidneys and/or the liver at some point? I mean it is a lot of work for those organs to turn aminos into glucose and to eliminate such high amounts of ammonia. Have you ever run into problems?
I'm not sure if I agree with the: You can't overeat on carnivore. When I eat higher fat I just can't stop. I tastes SO GOOD to me. I also gain weight (fat not muscle) on a higher fat ratio. Is that normal? But my appetite is quite high in general. Some days I put down 4-5 lbs of lean meat with no problem and I'm only 5'4 and 112 lbs. (quite active though) I also never experience fat malabsorption. At least I don't think so. What does it look like? Did I understand correctly: You're only eating low fat because otherwise you get diarrhoea? I initially started eating lower fat to prevent weight gain. I seem to never gain any weight on a very high protein approach. I'm concerned about the long term possible side effects though.
I sometimes listen to Judy Cho's interviews. She often talks about "eating the rainbow" on a carnivore diet. Is that really necessary or is she overcomplicating? (I mean ancient man back in the day did'n have access to 3 servings of oysters a week) My only concern is Omega 3's. Any thoughts on that? Is there enough in just ruminant muscle meat?
Also, any thought on cooked vs. raw?
Thanks so much.
Quote from Nina on April 8, 2022, 7:48 am
Sadly carnivore hasn't fixed my low oestrogen yet. I'm wondering if it is due to the low fat content I'm eating.
They want to put me on HRT (bio identical oestrogen). I'm hesitant, since it is an additional stress on the liver. Any thought on that? Or has anyone else experienced similar problems?
I would set up an appointment with one of Judy Cho's co-workers, or some of the folks who work with another carnivore friendly practitioner, like Mary Ruddick (who is not carnivore but deals with carnivore patients).
https://nutritionwithjudy.com/team/
https://www.enableyourhealing.com/team
I'm not sure if I agree with the: You can't overeat on carnivore. When I eat higher fat I just can't stop. I tastes SO GOOD to me. I also gain weight (fat not muscle) on a higher fat ratio. Is that normal? But my appetite is quite high in general. Some days I put down 4-5 lbs of lean meat with no problem and I'm only 5'4 and 112 lbs. (quite active though) I also never experience fat malabsorption. At least I don't think so. What does it look like? Did I understand correctly: You're only eating low fat because otherwise you get diarrhoea? I initially started eating lower fat to prevent weight gain. I seem to never gain any weight on a very high protein approach. I'm concerned about the long term possible side effects though.
Hah. I am a bit chubby at 186 lbs and 6'00''. That's a BMI of 25.2. You can definitely be chubby on carnivore. I too like to eat but I realize I eat even if I don't have a strong hunger sensation. I am doing one meal a day.
I sometimes listen to Judy Cho's interviews. She often talks about "eating the rainbow" on a carnivore diet. Is that really necessary or is she overcomplicating? (I mean ancient man back in the day did'n have access to 3 servings of oysters a week) My only concern is Omega 3's. Any thoughts on that? Is there enough in just ruminant muscle meat?
I've personally decided that the omega 3's in beef muscle meat are enough but I don't have strong evidence. Maybe if you ate grass-finished on the weekends and grain-finished on the weekdays you would get more omega 3's without going crazy on the vitamin A?
Also, any thought on cooked vs. raw?
I eat raw but I would experiment to see if you get health improvements from doing so for about a month before needing to commit to it long term.
Garrett Smith seems pretty much opposed to any version of a carnivore diet. Thus, people on his network are most likely eating a decent amount of plant foods and intentionally eating more and more fiber, trying to get it at every meal. That is doubtless impacting their absorption and utilization of nutrients, including molybdenum (although beans do contain higher amounts…not sure how bioavailable it is after soaking and pressure cooking though).
In the end, there’s not a lot of hard evidence to use to make a judgement call on supplements, which is why I simply experimented with a ton of them myself. Smith seems to be entirely relying on Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis to assess the status of most trace minerals in his clients, and I have my doubts that he interprets them appropriately. I also don’t know whether HTMA is actually a legitimate way to assess anything in the first place…if anything, it seems to indicate more of a balance between minerals rather than telling you absolute amounts in your body.
Beyond that, do we actually need molybdenum for Vitamin A detox? It’s mainly recommended in cases of copper toxicity, where it probably is useful to supplement, but if you don’t have major copper problems I doubt you need extra molybdenum beyond a carnivore diet (I supplemented with it on and off and could not tell a noticeable difference).
I’m approaching the two year mark this July. I’ve been really messed up though, with oxalate toxicity on top of Vitamin A toxicity. I had carotenemia from beta-carotene that lasted for over a year before I eliminated Vitamin A from my diet, and that was on top of eating cod liver oil, desiccated liver, fresh liver, kidney, dairy, and tons of eggs. Hopefully you don’t have it as bad as I did…
I’ve done a variety of lab workups over the years, but never bothered to check Vitamin A levels because that metric seems so unhelpful in determining the level of chronic toxicity. If I could measure serum Vitamin A on an hourly or daily basis, that would paint an excellent picture of what was happening, but having it done at any greater interval seems to be virtually meaningless due to circadian fluctuations.
As I mentioned before, it’s quite possible your estrogen is low due to Vitamin A toxicity if you do have Vitamin A toxicity. I don’t know anything about HRT, but I was offered supplemental testosterone by a functional medicine doctor when I found mine was low, and I declined. It depends on how bad low estrogen makes you feel…for some people, maybe the risk of HRT is worth it, but I would generally stay away from it and address the root of the problem instead.
If you’re eating beef heart every day, that might be too much. But maybe your body is craving copper. High estrogen is associated with elevated copper levels…I’m not sure if the reverse is true. Heart is a favorite of mine as well.
I think our bodies are built to deal with high protein intake from meat. I would probably be more concerned about a lack of calories from fat than the byproducts of lean protein metabolism, but it is certainly something to be aware of. My labwork showed high BUN and creatinine, which is to be expected on a carnivore diet and is not necessarily a problem if high protein consumption is the reason for it.
Vitamin A toxicity and other toxicities can cause the body to attempt to put on adipose fat in order to store the toxins outside the blood and tissues. I would suggest that might be the reason you can gain weight on a carnivore diet, and toxicity might also explain your exceptional hunger.
Mild fat malabsorption will make your stool float on the surface of the toilet water (fat is less dense than water). It might make your stool somewhat paler in color. Or, if you’ve really overeaten fat, you might see globs of fat in the stool…this is what happened to me when I was spooning tallow straight out of the jar! I crave fat, but I try to only eat what I can absorb…undigested fat will bind with calcium in the gut and you might wind up with calcium deficiency if that keeps happening. I'm not totally opposed to a bit of carbs for energy though...I keep playing around with small amounts of white rice. What I find is that my overnight HRV and RHR (as measured by an Oura ring) are really bad when I eat zero carb, and gradually improve with a higher carb:fat ratio, but my interpretation is that those bad HRV and RHR scores are due to Vitamin A dumping...so, more fat and less carb probably equates to more Vitamin A dumping but feeling worse because of it.
I think there’s plenty of Omega 3 in grass-finished ruminant fat. “Eating the rainbow” is a way of hedging your bets when you aren’t sure if you’re getting enough of something. I’m not going to say it’s a bad idea to eat a wide variety of animal foods…you ARE more likely to avoid missing particular nutrients that way. But carnivores like Shawn Baker are proof that eating pretty much only beef can be sufficient if the cattle were healthy and raised on decent pasture.
The raw thing is kind of ridiculous in my opinion, almost as bad as suggesting you should eat raw vegetables instead of cooking them. I think you can be healthy doing either, but (1) there’s always a heightened risk of pathogens in raw meat, and (2) it’s way easier to digest gently cooked protein than it is raw protein. You might lose a miniscule amount of nutrients to heat, but the increased digestibility means you expend less time and energy than you would breaking down raw meat. I would suggest doing the sensible thing, which is to brown the outside of steaks and leave the middle pretty raw. I would cook ground meat pretty thoroughly unless you watch it get ground fresh in front of you. And obviously cook poultry and fresh fish thoroughly to avoid parasites and salmonella (I think most fish sold at grocery stores has been frozen long enough to kill parasites, but if you’re not sure, it’s best to play it safe…there are a ton of parasites in the salmon I catch myself).
I come back and read this thread and it is always so interesting. I am of the opinion that the way we are made is purposefully flexible, that is why we've been so darn successful, and if Weston Price got the vitamin A thing wrong, he got something else right: There are lots of successful ways to be fed. The most important thing we get from food is CALORIES. Low-calorie food is, to me, a sort of oxymoron. Good tasting air?
I've seen ancestors of mine, spouses, on the same diet and one die at 64, while the other at 99... Not all of what goes into longevity is food, although food is important. Strangely enough, I think the emphasis on fitness might not be as important as just not being sedentary.
I feel myself working myself up for my 3 year update. Sometimes I feel like a liar to even say I'm still "low vitamin A". Although I do make decisions every day that add up to much less than I WAS eating.
I'm a bit weird here in that I've gained a bit (about 10 lbs) from going lower VA, and perhaps that is what I needed. I look a bit more like a regular, every day middle-aged person now. It does seem like skinny middle aged people are not the norm, even looking back at history. I suppose it is because I don't experience "everything must go" nights any more LOL.
What a strange situation! panda bears LIKE bamboo, have lost their taste for meat, but still have the gut of a regular bear?
I can't help feeling like these bears were invented, chosen, bred... like farm animals... their colors and demeanor are so unnatural. Well, history is very obscure. Both animal and human. I feel like we only scratch the surface of knowledge about what has come before.
Last night caught a bit of "Planet of the Apes" and thought about how history gets written and re-written and times before forgotten and re-forgotten. History that doesn't agree gets quashed.
Thanks for linking to that panda article, they're an interesting case that I haven't thought of in a long while. I'm going to have to go back to The Panda's Thumb, by Stephen J. Gould, to see if he had anything to say about their digestive system a couple decades ago. I'm not sure how relevant that cited study on the gut biome was if they were feeding the pandas a bunch of steamed bread every day...clearly not natural. But pandas are an excellent example of why raw veganism will also turn a human (similar digestive system to bears) into a worthless pile of poo that can't reproduce.
I disagree with your "calories are the most important" statement. You must have heard the phrase "overfed and undernourished" used to describe people on a Standard American diet. In contrast, I'd been wondering how groups like the Hadza seem to survive on seemingly tiny amounts of lean meat, and I think it's because when you're healthy you DON'T need very many calories to function. Your body works so efficiently in the absence of fighting environmental toxins, manmade toxins, plant toxins, and inflammation from processed carbs, that the little bit of energy you get from lean game all goes toward movement and basic physiological functions.
Dr Smith criticizes the muscle-meat carnivore diet in the first 30 minutes or so of his livestream video this morning. His main complaint is that carnivore is not fixing the underlying problem but serving as a bandaid to mask symptoms. Dr Smith uses a patient anecdote from a late 19th century health book advocating something like a carnivore diet to argue that carnivore is not detoxing you. Dr Smith says that symptoms will return if you go off your carnivore diet, meaning that the diet did not get rid of say vitamin A from the body.
https://eatmeatdrinkwater.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/what-must-i-do-to-get-well-by-elma-stuart.pdf
@wavygravygadzooks, do you want to rebut the first part of the video?
Haha, seriously?! I would argue the exact opposite. If anything, it is the intake of plant crap that can lead to the illusion of improvement by occupying or inhibiting your detox pathways, thereby slowing the release of Vitamin A from storage and minimizing symptoms from that release.
I've tried a variety of diets over the years, and I continue to hang my hat on the muscle meat carnivore diet because it, alone, has overwhelming evidence on its side. Does Garrett Smith even believe in evolution? I don't know why anyone would believe someone who's citing the bible as a main line of evidence for anything scientific, unless they themselves had a religious bend, which is precisely the following I see on his website. Smith is their shepherd and savior, soothsayer and Space Weather astrologist.
How do I view the livestream retroactively?
Actually, I don't know if I can stand to watch it...when I first found his website a couple years ago, I spent a few days going through his videos, and eventually I couldn't stand listening to him talk anymore, it was driving me crazy. He kept drawing conclusions from virtually zero evidence. He would read somebody's question, type the keywords into PubMed or DuckDuckGo, and then make some claim based off a 5-second glance at whatever happened to pop up on his screen.
He is a perfect example of a conspiracy theorist...he knows just enough to vaguely connect the dots between things, without having the scientific discipline to understand statistics and the limitations of research methodologies. Basically, his evaluations of the science are paper thin and he lets his own bias dominate his decision-making process at every turn. The idiocy of his approach is encapsulated in his oft-repeated phrase "there is no such thing as coincidence". Uh...there definitely is, it's called spurious correlation, and there's a whole hilarious website dedicated to it with examples like Nicholas Cage movies being correlated with the rates of drownings.