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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
Maybe I need the 80/20 as @carnivore suggests. What are your current views on fat and protein?
It definitely seems like eating low fat for an extended period of time is a bad idea if you can avoid it. I didn’t realize you had been eating low fat for a long time now, that could be playing a large role in your lack of menstruation. Do you not crave fat? When I eat meat that is too lean, I naturally crave adding more fat to every bite. Eating cold fat (that’s been cooked) is often appealing to me as well, whether it’s chunks of fat trimmed off the meat or tallow. In the long run, 80/20 beef seems like the bare minimum fat content you’d want to sustain yourself, especially if you’re not eating large quantities. 80/20 seems to be around the threshold for my own taste…any less fat and I strongly feel the need to add more.
YES this is basically me. I have a hard time not pushing hard all the time and taking time to relax. I know. What are symptoms of adrenal fatigue/HPA axis disregulation? What is it exactly? I haven't looked into it yet. Where can I find some good information?
HPA axis dysregulation is basically when you’ve been cranking out high levels of cortisol (in response to stressors) for an extended period of time and have “worn down” your body’s ability to cope with that much circulating cortisol. Your body responds by reducing cortisol output, which leads to fatigue/exhaustion and typically a variety of hormonal problems, including sex hormone imbalances. There are often problems with sleep that develop, and a complete inability to cope with stressors (resulting in anxiety and fatigue). That tends to reduce your immune response and expose you to illness more easily. Then when you get sick, that’s yet another stressor that your body struggles to cope with, and you get stuck in a vicious cycle.
To effectively recover from a severe case of HPA axis dysregulation, you really need to unplug from all the stress in your life. Some people have to take a break from or quit their job/education, unplug from the news, distance themselves from conflicts with people at all costs, etc.
What are your thought on HRT? I am thinking about replacing my low oestrogen until my body heals from chronic stress. I already have low bone density (is this reversible? not sure everybody says something else). The thing is that my brain pushes me so hard that I don't even hear my body screaming when it is tired.
I think you’ve asked about HRT here in the past. I honestly don’t know much about it. I’m sure there’s a time and place to use it, but I would always try changing your diet/lifestyle before reaching for pills that muck with your natural system. As @shaun suggested, I would stop eating so much heart. You should probably aim to eat everything in an animal in proportion to what comes on the animal…if it takes you a year to eat a whole cow by yourself, then don’t eat more than one heart, one liver, two kidneys, etc. from a cow per year. There’s a decent amount of copper in heart by the looks of it…that could certainly be contributing to your mental symptoms. I definitely think you can correct bone density problems on a carnivore diet, although it might require some extra minerals from specific supplements?
Do you use an aura ring to track HRV/RHR? Or how do you know such markers?
Yes, I use an OURA ring. The only metrics I trust it to provide accurately are HRV, RHR, Respiratory Rate, and relative temperature. The derived metrics (Sleep Scores and Readiness Scores) seem pretty inaccurate. I’ve found it most useful to track HRV and RHR, which respond strongly to bodily stress.
How is it that a viral infection pushes out VA into the system?
From what I’ve gathered, Vitamin A is used by the body in immune responses to pathogens, possibly as a method of killing them directly. Just like elevating your body temperature is an attempt to kill pathogens at the expense of compromising your own cells, increasing circulating Vitamin A could be an attempt to kill pathogens at the expense of damage to your body that your body is better able to recover from.
I was completely in line with the logic of the carnivore diet. Since covid, as I mentioned there are mental things going on too, which are new to me. Confusion, anxiety, depression, no focus, no motivation. But this could also be due to not enough fat over a pretty long period of time. PLUS stress from change in environment and Covid. Those markers being off are just confusing me and making me question things.
There are a wide variety of mechanisms that could cause these symptoms, but I would suggest that having Covid led to circulating Vitamin A, elevated ferritin (in an attempt by your body to make iron inaccessible to a pathogen), and copper dysregulation. Your liver then started to struggle with that new imbalance.
I have no control over my day right now. This hole of a school doesn't have fresh air, EMF pollution through the roof, blinds are down when there is just the slightest bit of sun. It makes me sick, both physically and mentally and I don't know if it would be best to stop. I'm used to spending my days outside, fresh air, sun...
Honestly, if you really value your health, you might need to at least consider stopping. Your body sounds like it craves a different environment at the moment. Probably see how much you can improve by doing all the other diet and lifestyle changes suggested before pulling the plug though?
I've had terrible gum recession develop on my mostly carnivore diet (happened pretty suddenly after eating the same way for a year, so I'm pretty sure it's related to Vitamin A and not some problem inherent to the diet), but I've not noticed any problems with my teeth. Seems like most people report dental and periodontal improvements on a carnivore diet. Maybe what you experienced is related to a surge of oxalates released from your tissues? Or somehow related to Vitamin A... Sounds like a pretty strange incident, whatever the cause.
I remember seeing somebody on Garrett Smith's site claiming he lost a chunk of his tongue overnight on a low Vitamin A diet. That seemed incomprehensible/inexplicable...until I started accumulating a long list of weird shit that happened to me on a low Vitamin A diet. Now I'm not so sure what kind of crazy stuff might happen as a result of sudden shifts in the body. At one point I had strips of skin peeling off the bottoms of my feet, deep enough that it was very painful. Just came out of nowhere and disappeared almost as quickly, never to return. WTF?!
I'm still very frustrated trying to understand what is going on with my gums, it started so suddenly, seemingly out of nowhere, and I think it happened after I tried eating shredded coconut. Never noticed it before then when eating coconut oil though, or other sources of fiber. I never tested positive for immune response to coconut or had any reason to believe I was sensitive to coconut. Experimenting after that first event has led me to believe it has to do with fat and fiber consumption, and that eating both of those together can lead to some powerful response (via large bile outputs, presumably). As to why it never happened before that point, and then happened so acutely and aggressively, I'm still scratching my head.
Quote from Nina on September 27, 2022, 5:06 amYes but why is my iron so sky high? I cannot look past that. This can be dangerous and an indicator of liver damage.
Could this be because I ate a shit ton of beef heart lately plus almost only lean meat (aka way more lean tissue than on high fat approach) and almost exclusively wild game (way higher in iron then beef/lamb)? I don't know, that's why I am asking.Are liver cleanses just water fasting for a day or two?
I believe your iron is so high because the body is unable to balance it properly. High fat consumption is essential for optimal iron uptake, neither too little nor too much. The body is self-regulating if one eats a proper human diet (meaning high fat carnivore). Low fat leads to either iron overload if lots of lean meat are eaten, or lack of iron and anaemia on a plant-based diet.
So what happens when you eat too much lean meat is increased stress for the body which you will notice physically, emotionally and mentally (some call it "rabbit starvation"). It's why you lost your period as well. That happens due to either undereating in general or undereating fat. To relax and feel well again, even in a negative environment with lots of stressors, you need plenty of animal fat.
Liver cleanses are done once a month with Epsom Salts (1 tablespoon in 8oz of water twice in the evening, 1-2 hours apart) and at least 6oz of animal fat in one sitting drunk an hour after the second glass of Epsom water. Then relax or go to be immediately. I usually use warmed butter or tallow so it becomes liquid and can be drunk in one go. Ideally you should have had a bowel movement before you drink the fat. If not, take an enema. Then another enema the morning after. This entire process cleans out clogged bile ducts. It's good for proper fat metabolism and helps to eliminate vA and other toxins.
This is important when doing liver cleanses and also on a high fat diet in general:
If you notice the first signs of nausea drink some apple cider vinegar (1-2 tablespoons) in a glass of water. The feeling of nausea should pass within seconds to minutes. If it returns, repeat. If the first liver cleanse shows that your body is unable to deal with that much fat without nausea, add 2 tablespoons of apple cider vinegar to 6oz of water next time and mix that with the butter or tallow, then drink that mixture and not just the fat. For the first cleanse you should probably just relax but stay awake, otherwise you may end up waking extremely nauseous. You can still take the apple cider vinegar then but it's more pleasant if it's taken at the first signs of nausea.
About the fat: Is this 80/20 in terms of calories? Or 80/20 beef?
HPA axis disregulation: That sounds exactly like me. I do have anxiety, sleep issues, no sex hormones, I can hardly cope with anything anymore, I can't adapt easily, feel overwhelmed instantly plus I had covid. Ok, I might see what is going on. Can I somehow check for that? Are there specific hormone levels that indicate an HPA axis disregulation?
Have you ever had one yourself? Unplugging from all stress sounds reasonable.
HRT: I stopped the heart. I totally see the point now in eating only one heart a year. I never believed that statement but you always learn...
How is copper affecting mental health? I had normal copper levels...
About the bone density: I don't know. Do you know where I can find some recourses? I really want to correct it. I don't have room for error that is why I strongly consider oestrogen replacement therapy.
Ferritin: Why does the body want to make ferritin inaccessible for pathogens?
Unplug: Very hard decision. We live in such a hyper productive world. I don't have an answer honestly. Have you ever suffered from an HPA axis disregulation yourself? Did you use other devices for self optimisation? Blue blockers, red light, sauna, cold exposure...
Interesting. I've never read that a high protein intake in absence of fat leads to high iron absorption. I thought the body would always regulate.
You think I feel "rabbit starvation" as anxiety and general malaise? Could very well be. How much protein is the limit in your opinion? Both in grams plus as percentage?
I look into those cleanses.
Thanks for your help.
I meant the ratio that gets labeled as 80% lean ground beef at a grocery store, so I guess that's 20% fat by weight.
Yes, I had HPA axis dysregulation. A functional medicine doctor diagnosed it with a DUTCH cortisol and sex hormones test (by Precision Analytical) along with some other labwork. It was about 3 years ago and I can't remember all the details at this point, sorry. I was having to take naps all the time and basically stopped working a regular job. Removing oxalates from my diet seemed to really help fix the condition, and then removing Vitamin A and going carnivore further helped. I started doing yoga and conscious breathing exercises and I always felt better after doing them. I started walking more and dialed back the harder exercise I was pushing my body to do. You probably don't want to do sauna or cold exposure when you've got HPA axis dysregulation because those are stressors to the body and you are trying to minimize all stressors. If you have to look at screens at night, then I would certainly consider blue-blocking glasses to assist your circadian rhythm and sleep, but it would be better just to put the screens away. Red light therapy is supposed to be healing without adding stress, but I honestly am not sure I believe all the hype about red light devices that use LEDs...I feel like infrared light (and therefore heat) produced by incandescent bulbs probably provides more benefits, in part by stimulating melatonin production the way that sun exposure would do.
I didn't mean literally limit yourself to a single heart per year, but just to bear in mind that our ancestors would not have had endless access to these parts of an animal, so if you are not feeling well you should probably ask yourself whether eating too much of something like heart could be responsible. It may not be a problem for you, particularly if your copper metrics are normal, but copper overload is associated with anxiety and mental problems and hormone dysregulation, so it's something to consider.
I don't remember reading or watching anything specifically about bone density, sorry. But if you've been eating low fat and have had Vitamin A problems, it seems possible you are running low on Vitamin K and that could be part of it?
Based on what I've heard listening to Paul Mason, it sounds as though pathogens (virus, bacteria, yeast) have differing degrees of iron requirements for replication, so if the body thinks that it has been invaded by a pathogen it supposedly reduces iron availability to those pathogens by binding more of it with ferritin, which helps to keep the pathogens from replicating but also makes you feel worn out (basically anemic) from lack of available iron.
Quote from Nina on September 30, 2022, 9:50 amInteresting. I've never read that a high protein intake in absence of fat leads to high iron absorption. I thought the body would always regulate.
You think I feel "rabbit starvation" as anxiety and general malaise? Could very well be. How much protein is the limit in your opinion? Both in grams plus as percentage?
I look into those cleanses.
Thanks for your help.
@nina High protein intake from red meat, yes. Not just any source. There's little usable iron in plants. And what @wavygravygadzooks wrote adds to this as well, not necessarily with regard to "pathogens" in my view (I don't believe there is such a thing), but that in the absence of fat the body's only chance to deal with excess iron is binding it to ferritin. The reason for this is the downregulation of oxygen in the body on a low fat diet.
As for protein intake per day, I'd say body weight in grams should be the upper limit for an active person, and fat roughly twice the body weight in grams. Fat can be increased if need be, protein shouldn't.
Example (for my own weight): 170 lbs -> 170 g protein (x4 = 680 kcal) and 340 g fat (x9 = 3060 kcal) -> total 3740 kcal (18% protein, 82% fat). It's a rough guideline and probably needn't be adhered to strictly but it's easy to calculate and it works pretty well.
If you want your period back you could try night lighting. You simulate the full moon in your bedroom for a few days (or open the shades when the full moon is out there). Then you take it away, and it might stimulate ovulation. 14 days later you should get a period.
I get the willies when people start talking about "proper human diet". That is the type of thing WAPF'ers say to one another all the time. It's talk like that... that got me into the goofy state I'm in.
Now, when I think of proper human diet, I think back on the diet I ate in the 1960's and 1970's, the diet my grandmother raised my mother on. The diet brought here from the old world (Germany in my case). The typical 3 squares a day.
Your "old world" might not be my "old world", however. That is proper human diet for ME.
Oh wow. How long did it take to resolve the HPA issue? How did it feel as soon as it resolved?
I thought about vitamin K. Do you worry about it at all? I meant it isn't really present in ruminant meat/fat. Or is it? I thought about supplementing but I am not sure. I don't eat eggs or poultry which is higher in K2.
Interesting. What do you mean with the down regulation of oxygen on a low fat diet? Never heard or it...
Ok, well that is a lot of fat. Is your appetite self regulating? Do you ever overeat? (or undereat) Also I do get diarrhoea with higher fat.
@nina My view is based on my perception of energy and vibration. It's not something I read about. Different kinds of food and drink influence the body in different ways because of their particular wavelength. The body has an optimum wavelength at which it operates best. If it goes much higher or lower there can be problems that the body tries to balance. One such balancing effect is the downregulation of oxygen. Another could be diarrhea or vomiting.
My appetite is self-regulating. I can't say that I ever overeat. I think it's quite impossible to overeat fat. The worst that happens is that one gets nauseous and if that happens it's easy to balance it with something like apple cider vinegar. If you get diarrhea with high fat you'll need to increase the quantity more slowly and eat smaller meals and more often. Five small meals a day are better than one or two. Just make sure you eat about the same 80/20 ratio each time so not much protein is converted to glucose and blood sugar stays at the same level. I'm currently eating three meals a day but try to go up to four or five, too. It's just that I'm never hungry and often forget to eat when I'm at work, so I'm more likely to undereat on this diet.