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Carnivore and Bile Acid Malabsorption
There is definitely K2 in ruminant fat and it appears to be sufficient for a healthy person and for a lot of people fixing their health problems based on all the carnivore diet success stories. There's probably more in grass-finished fat. Liver is probably a richer source of it, but if you're avoiding liver like me, that won't do. Unfortunately, what I've found in my searches suggests that K2 has not been well measured in foods, and most of the focus has been on K1. There are a bunch of different forms of K2 as well, so it can get pretty confusing when you look at the details and try to understand what form(s) the body needs most.
I never retested my cortisol and hormones, so I don't really know where I stand with regard to those things. I feel much better than I used to (I rarely feel the need to take naps anymore), but I am still struggling with some things that could be related to the HPA axis, so I'm not going to claim that I 100% healed that problem yet. But there are clear improvements in energy.
I'm still not entirely sure in what cases more taurine might help, but if your diarrhea after eating fat is a result of fat malabsorption, then eating more taurine might help that by increasing your ability to generate bile salts. It seems likely that taurine gets depleted by Vitamin A toxicity, as well as other toxicities, since it is used in detoxification processes. Heart is supposed to be high in taurine, which is a good reason to keep eating that regularly as long as you're aware of the potential problems with getting too much copper from it. On the other hand, if your diarrhea is a consequence of Vitamin A in the stool (as I have suspected in my own case), then additional taurine might actually make diarrhea worse by binding directly to Vitamin A and exporting it to the intestines at a faster rate. I'm not sure if you've ever come across Harry Serpanos on YouTube, but his "thing" is taurine, that everybody could use more taurine. Like everyone else out there, he definitely has blind spots and tends to be too dismissive about certain things and too gung-ho about others, but he often does worthwhile assessments of carnivore topics. He seems to be buddy-buddy with Bart Kay or something.
Hi everybody
I am coming at you with some new questions:
Since upping my fat and starting to eat raw ruminant fat (marrow or beef/lamb fat) my poop has never been the same again. It is always floating and has a strange texture and sometimes there is mucus. Also it is green and never brown. Sometimes dark green sometimes light green. I take charcoal from time to time to bind whatever comes out of my liver. Could the color indicate that my liver finally started detoxing? (it has been a year since stopping my extremely high VA intake)
I also get stomach aches and heart burn on the regular. I rally don't know what is happening. I have to mention that I started eating all of my meat raw (sometimes frozen) since I am craving it that way. Don't know why. Yes I know it is not the smartest thing to do due to parasites but all the meat is in big chunks (not ground) and flash frozen, super high quality grass fed from New Zealand (lamb or venison). Maybe it is too hard for the enzyme system and my colon is irritated? I just don't like cooked anymore, it is really strange.
Another symptom is redness around the eyes almost all the time. (WTF ist that? Histamines?)
Any ideas what might be going on?
@carnivore Could you explain to me again how to do a liver/galblader flush? Do I have to drink the salt? Isn't that for bathing? I am curious to try.
Thanks for your answer.
@nina Here's what I wrote earlier:
Liver cleanses are done once a month with Epsom Salts (1 tablespoon in 8oz of water twice in the evening, 1-2 hours apart) and at least 6oz of animal fat in one sitting drunk an hour after the second glass of Epsom water. Then relax or go to be immediately. I usually use warmed butter or tallow so it becomes liquid and can be drunk in one go. Ideally you should have had a bowel movement before you drink the fat. If not, take an enema. Then another enema the morning after. This entire process cleans out clogged bile ducts. It's good for proper fat metabolism and helps to eliminate vA and other toxins.
Yes, you should drink the Epsom salt water, not bathe in it. Go slowly with increasing the fat and try to eat your meat cooked. It's easier on your digestion that way. Is your body temperature rather too low on average unless you exercise? If it is, better learn to eat your meat cooked. Eating raw, lean meat and little fat cools the body down and then you definitely need to get your temperature up to increase your metabolism. If on the other hand it's rather high then that would explain why you want to eat your meat raw and/or frozen, but that's all right only if body temperature is high, otherwise you're merely prolonging an imbalance by not providing your body the heat it requires.
If you haven't looked at my other thread about wax esters, might want to glance at it real quick. I hypothesize that this strange waxy appearance of my stool while on carnivore is the result of Vitamin A being bound directly to fatty acids in the liver and released in the bile, and that orange coloration in my stool (often bound in what looks to be mucus) is that Vitamin A.
Green in the stool is most likely bile acids/salts. I was getting green stools when I first went carnivore, but I haven't had it in a very long time now. Your body is probably trying to adjust to the increase in fat consumption. Alternatively, the charcoal may be binding to bile acids and sequestering them in the stool...I think I remember somebody on Smith's site saying they were getting really green poop when taking charcoal.
Floating stool is most likely from fat in the stool due to fat malabsorption and/or bile acid malabsorption. If you still have extra Vitamin A loads in the liver, it's possible that the body is trying to avoid absorbing any more Vitamin A from the fat you're eating by downregulating the reabsorption of bile acids in the small intestines and instead jettisoning them in the colon and stool.
As with vegetables, cooking meat should make it easier to digest by degrading the protein structures (as long as it's not burned/charred). I've certainly heard people claim that raw meat was easier to digest, and usually they claim it's due to enzymes in the meat, but I expect your stomach acid should destroy any enzymes that might aid digestion (although I'm not sure how any intact enzymes in the meat would actually have a significant impact on digestion anyway...if that were the case, humans would probably not have been cooking meat in the first place because it would increase the energetic cost of digestion to have to produce your own digestive enzymes in place of what's already in the meat). You might be craving raw meat if some of the nutrients your body really needs are present in higher amounts in uncooked meat...seems like most water-soluble vitamins get destroyed to various degrees by heat. Your body might also be craving iron...I don't have any proof to point to, but I've wondered whether heme iron oxidizes during cooking and therefore becomes less useable/absorbable to the body. Raw meat-ists often make the claim that heating the iron in meat makes it toxic...I'm not sure about toxic, but possibly less bioavailable. Ferric (oxidized) iron is insoluble in water and is presumed to be less bioavialable than ferrous (non-oxidized) iron that is soluble in water. I suspect all this talk about the toxicity of iron in pink himalayan salt and from cooking in cast iron pans is bullshit due to the fact that it is in the ferric form and likely just gets passed through the intestines without getting absorbed, therefore posing minimal hazard to the body.
I've had a lot of very random upper GI upset while doing low Vitamin A. Not so much heartburn as intense gnawing pain in the stomach. Usually the stomach pain came on in the afternoon after drinking a fair amount of water before dinner, or it happened after I started eating dinner and would put me on the floor in pain for about 30 minutes before it subsided. Because I've tried Betaine HCl in the past and had horribly painful experiences, I recognized that gnawing pain as likely being from stomach acid irritating the stomach lining. My best guess is that there's something going haywire with the nervous system (vagus nerve?) and its control of stomach acid production, basically causing too much stomach acid to be generated. I've had a number of other issues that seem to stem from nervous system problems (sensation of lump in throat, dysfunction of the burp reflex, colon motility problems) that I have attributed to Vitamin A toxicity for lack of other scapegoats at this point.
Thanks for your answer. Can you recommend a brand of epsom salt? I've never used it and here in Switzerland I'm not sure if I can get it. What is it exactly anyways and why is it used in a liver flush? I don't understand the idea behind it. Same with the fat. Should it trigger a release of bile? Isn't that the case anyways by eating a fatty meal? Does it have to be liquid tallow or can I eat it by the spoon full? And what are enemas, how do you do those? Sorry I am a newbie and have never done anything like this.
Yes, I actually do feel more cold when eating raw/frozen. When I eat a lot of fat though close to bed especially I get night sweats and I run extremely hot. Do you eat cooked?
Interesting view point. Could very well be the case. I've never seen such a texture before. If you look closely it is shiny like a green shimmer. If you keep a piece of raw fat in your mouth it gets kinda sticky. It looks just like that just with another color. I get blood shot eyes too and an irritation around my eyes (with spider veins), what is this?
So could it really be the case that the body just doesn't take the toxic stuff back up und excretes it which results in excess fat/bile in the stool? This would make a high fat carnivore diet the ultimate VA detox diet. Why do so many advocate for a LOW FAT version with lost of starch and fiber for VA to soak into? Is there no such thing as a carrier needed? They say that the toxic bile is reabsorbed and thus a higher fat version is not suitable. Are they all wrong?
Not sure about the iron. I am already overloaded so I don't want more. I just feel lighter on raw that is all. I feel like I have hardly eaten and can go on a run or do things immediately after. I like this a lot. What do you think about the parasites? Do you personally eat it fully cooked?
I wanted to up my fat a bit and I overdid it when I started eating 15% fat beef too much. The fat increases the amount of bile. I got heartburn as well. Possibly pushing the detox too much. Finding the happy medium is what I would recommend. Eggs and choline are very helpful for fat metabolism and the body seems to cope better with the slightly higher fat from up to 4 eggs a day. I digest chocolate better now but I dont overdo the fat because I am already experiencing strong detox for a long time.
A shout out to a fellow swiss citizen!
lol...we've been over this before...yes, I personally think that the meat and fat carnivore diet is the ultimate detox diet, because it is also the ultimate human diet, period. Doesn't it make sense that the best diet for healing any imbalance in the body would be the diet that is best suited to that body? From what I've seen, a meat and fat carnivore diet is it...that's why people have been fixing such a wide variety of problems on that diet so consistently. There are going to be caveats, it won't work perfectly in every last person for various reasons, but as a general rule the carnivore diet is the optimal diet for healing and for living. Based on this reasoning, yes, everybody who claims otherwise has to be wrong, especially doctor dipSmith.
Not sure how many times I have to repeat this before it sinks in with people (I'm not screaming at you here @nina): bile ACIDS are just ONE COMPONENT of bile and it is bile ACIDS that get reabsorbed at a high rate, precisely because they are critical for fat absorption and dumping them into the colon would represent a waste of resources. Bile ACIDS are NOT BOUND TO TOXINS, they are bound to taurine and glycine to create bile salts until they interact with dietary fat to enable its absorption. Toxins and metabolic waste products like bilirubin are a SEPARATE COMPONENT of bile. In a healthy person eating a species appropriate diet, THE TOXIC COMPONENTS OF THE BILE GET ELIMINATED IN THE STOOL; if they were getting reabsorbed, then that person would be dead in short order, as would any carnivorous mammal with similar physiology, but that's not the case. An essential principle of evolution is that wasteful processes do not persist unless they represent a net benefit, and there is no demonstrable benefit of dumping bile acids into the colon, especially if they are toxic to the colon environment.
I'm not sure why your eyes get bloodshot, but @are has experienced reddened eyes when supplementing taurine, which I believe to be related to enhanced detox from the taurine. I never got bloodshot eyes, but I did get all kinds of red sores on the skin around my eyes for a while...couldn't tell if that was from oxalate release or Vitamin A, but it was some kind of dermatitis that eventually stopped. For a while, I also had very oily skin around my eyes and on my eyelids that burned that I'm pretty sure was from Vitamin A.
I've not been brave enough to try any raw meat or fat, although I have gradually tried rawer versions of cooked steak. I just listened to an interview with a woman who's been eating lightly cooked and raw ground beef for years and hasn't had problems...I know that stomach acid should destroy harmful bacteria, but I just don't want to take any risk messing up my GI tract any more than it has been for the past 15 years. I doubt parasites are much of an issue from domestic beef muscle meat, especially if you trust the source. When I've seen parasites in animals I've hunted (caribou) or raised myself (rabbits), they are typically in the skin (bot fly larvae in caribou) or in the organs, particularly the liver. Fish is a completely different story though, the salmon I catch myself are typically loaded with worms in the flesh, which is why you are supposed to thoroughly freeze the fish before consuming for optimal safety.
@christian Haha, hiiiii.
Ok ok, I'll make a screen shot this time, I promise! =) Joke. I know you are not shouting at me. But yes I could have looked for that post, you explained this issue before I remember.
I just don't want to get dogmatic. There are (ex)carnivores who have introduced beans and/or rice and have gotten a lot better. You cannot ignore that. They basically do the mere opposite of a high fat diet. So there must be something to the "fibre to soak up toxins"- theory too. Or am I wrong? (Not just talking about Dr. DipSmith here)
Still not sure if Frank Tufano is the biggest quack or if he actually tells the truth.
His theory is, that a high fat diet puts stress on the liver (digestion). The liver is already damaged from VA and cannot perform its tasks properly. So its healing capacity is further hindered. In order to take stress of the liver and allow it to heal one introduces starches and carbs as primary fuel source. (white rice, beans, cauliflower/mushrooms....) These are digested by the biome and whatever other organ but not by the liver primarily. They also soak up toxins that the liver gradually releases. (at a much lower rate due to low fat) Fiber also promotes gut motility, prevents further absorption of other toxins and gets waste out quickly.
Sunds plausible too. This is basically what Grant is doing. What could speak against this?
Again, I am a proponant of a muscle meat only carnivore diet and in general I feel very good on it. Lately though, I had a few markers being way off and extremely weird digestive and skin related symptoms, so it is fair to question.